preacherman

Monday, October 30, 2006

Doctrines of the Church

We live in a world and society that says there are no absolutes. No right or wrong. What you feel goes. What you think is right. The ultimate sin is to tell someone that they are wrong. I believe the church is to influence the society in which we live not the other way around so some questions for disussion are:

Has the church, the way we view the word of God, and the message we preach influneced by society? Have we thrown out essential doctrines so men and society won't be offended? What happens when the church does this? Can we as Christians really know that the word of God is truth? Can we tell others in our society that there is a right and wrong, an only way?
What is doctrine? What are the essentials, or non-essnetials? What issues do you see as matters of salvation.
What do you think.
Share your thoughts.

83 Comments:

Blogger Keith said...

I have to start this reply off by saying I have a very hard time judging a persons salvation. We can all see statements in the word that scream life or death but personally I cannot in my words tell anyone no matter how bad they might be that they are going to hell unless...

I am sure we can outline or paraphrase the bible and make salvation a quick and easy 3 step process.
1) Believe (romans 10:9)
2) Repent (Acts 2:38)
3) Be Baptized (romans 6:3)

We can outline all these things but in the end I see Jesus saying make disciples not believers. One thing that I have always found profound about the bible is not what it says, but what it doesn’t say. Note that it DOESN’T say; Go into the entire world and make them believers. It says make them DISCIPLES. Being a Christian is wearing a name, being a disciple is a way of life.

I often wonder when will we start to think there must be more to Christianity, more than just laying your life and sins at the foot of the cross? Mark Twain said it best when he said, "It's not the parts of the Bible I don't understand that scare me, but the parts I do understand."

3:35 PM  
Blogger KentF said...

If someone claims to be of Christ, a believer that Jesus Christ is the Son of God - I think we embrace him, asking no questions, and move on. I believe the church's light has become so dim in the world because we have spent the past 75 years arguing over details, not upholding details perfectly. At what point do we admit that - and move on.

Great points Keith - and great topic PM.

5:39 PM  
Blogger Alan said...

A good example of being influenced by the world is our definition of greed.

I remember some 30 years ago a famous preacher talking about this. He illustrated from his childhood when the example of a materialistic person was someone who had a house in the suburbs, a car, and a color television. The preacher said that standard of greed had changed to someone who had two cars and a boat. Nowadays, our houses are twice as big, the cars are $30,000 (or more!) SUV's, there are color TV's in every room, and the family is carrying five figures worth of credit card debt. Husband and wife are both working to pay for it all, while the kids let themselves into an empty house when they come home from school. And yet, who has ever heard of someone being put out of the church for being greedy, as 1 Cor 5:11-13 commands?

Why can't we wait to consume until we have the money to pay for it? Isn't that a pretty good indicator of greed?

6:07 PM  
Blogger Serena Voss said...

I have enjoyed visiting your blog and the comments you have thoughtfully placed on preachermike's blog. I was fascinated by your bio and the fact that you are currently in Rocksprings. I have many relatives from near there. Grace and Peace to you....

8:24 PM  
Anonymous David said...

Preacherman,
You ask some great questions once again.
I think love is the essential doctrine that we should preach. If we don't love all the other things that we teach and preach on and do as Christians mean nothing.

10:40 PM  
Blogger Mike Exum said...

David,

Amen brutha!

10:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I believe the doctrines of the church would include the plan of salvation (believe, confess, repent, be baptized) would be the first essential. Then their is continued faith and obedience to Christ which would include loving God with all of your heart and loving your neighbor as yourself.

Steven

10:57 PM  
Blogger japhy said...

keith, if being a disciple is a way of life, then your 3-step process is missing the post-baptism step. John the Baptist called it "producing good fruit" (Matthew 3:8), as did Jesus (Matthew 21:43). Paul defines such fruits (Galatians 5:22-23) and prayed that the churches might produce good fruit so as to be pleasing to the Lord (Colossians 1:9-10). James wrote that Wisdom from God manifests itself in purity, gentleness, mercy, and good fruits (James 3:17).

4) Produce Good Fruit

This is why Catholics have the guts to say that through God's Grace, and our response to that Grace through our faith and works, we are saved.

7:34 AM  
Blogger Velcro said...

I think that Japhy has a point about producing good fruits and one of those good fruits is love... however, I don't believe that the Catholic church has a monopoly on this concept.

One verse that I have heard used out of context to judge whether one is saved or not is Matthew 7:16, By their fruit you will recognize them.

Many Christians make it sound like Christ is talking about other Christians, when in fact He is talking about false prophets.

10:38 AM  
Anonymous Tess Mabry said...

Preacherman,

I really have enjoyed reading your blog. Thank you so much for all your difficult questions.

I am biased a bit, but I want to say how much I believe in you.

Love, Mrs. Preacherman

12:31 PM  
Blogger Keith said...

Japhy,

I totally agree with you!

I was illustrating in my response, what I feel is the normal road I see traveled by Christian Churches in America. I feel as though they are in the business of mass marketing Christians as opposed to making disciples.

Our Lord said they will know you are my disciple by your __________ LOVE!
Love is something I don't think we see enough of today.

In my recent blog at http://adetailedreflection.blogspot.com/
I began to talk more about love and its forms.

1:21 PM  
Blogger Wade Tannehill said...

What? A comment from Tess Mabry?!?! I almost fell out of my chair.

1:53 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Keith,
I want to thank you for your thoughts and adding to the disucssion. So would you say it is essential that we agree on the plan of salvation, or how to become a disciple of Jesus?
I do believe we have neglected the making disciples in the past. Many people have been dunked and haven't become the disciple. So I would say discipleship is essential doctrine that we as Christians must follow. Do you agree?
Again thank you for you comments as always. I greatly appreciate it.

KentF,
Thank you for your comments and discussion. Where do you think discipleship falls into the asking no questions. How can we make disciples without asking questions and teaching? What about baptism? Is it essential or non-essential? Are we saved by faith, simply saying I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God? Just wondering. Great comments. You make me think. I like that!

Alan,
Thanks for adding to the discussion as always and sharing the illustration. Good point.

Serna,
Thank you for visiting my blog and appreciating my comments on preachermikes blog. I am so blessed to be at the church of Christ in Rocksrpings. They are such a blessing to me and my family. Authentic christians to say the least. Love for you or any of your relatives to visit if you or they are in the area.

David,
Great comment. I believe that love is key. All you have to do is look at Pauls writting and 1st John to see it. Thank you for reminding us that love is an essential that never must compromise.

Mike,
Thanks for you agreement with David and agreeing that love is essential and central to our faith in Christ.

Steven,
I do believe the the way we become a Christian is essential. Salvation is not multiple choice. I believe the Bible should be our only creed as we show others the way of Christ.

Japhy,
Great thoughts as always.
I believe the fruit should be evident in our lives. We should understand that be comming a Christian is ALL about Christ and following HIS Will. As Paul says: "It is no longer I but Christ." Living the Christian life is so important and I believe sa we live the committed live those fruits will be evident.
Again great thoughts.
I appreciate you adding to the disccussion as always.

Josh,
Great comment.
Thank you for the reminder.

Mrs. Preacherman,
I love you sweetie.
Thank you for reading and giving me the encouragement I need. You are such a blessing in my life. I love you.

Keith,
Thanks for the link to your recent post on love.


Wade,
I am sorry you almost fell out of your chair. I almost fell out of mine too seeing that you posted a comment and finally had something to add. :-) LOL.


I think this is going to be a great disucssion.

3:06 PM  
Blogger japhy said...

keith: I feel as though they are in the business of mass marketing Christians as opposed to making disciples.

Agreed, amen.

In my recent blog at http://adetailedreflection.blogspot.com/
I began to talk more about love and its forms.


Yeah, I followed your profile to your blog and noticed your post from August from which you drew in your reply here.

3:39 PM  
Blogger Keith said...

Preacherman,

I think the first essential is love. There are many things that other Christian friends and I don't agree on when it comes to salvation but we both agree that we serve a God who's love is at times beyond our comprehension.

I do believe the word of God as 100% accurate and true and when the word says repent and be baptized and walk in the newness of life I take that as literal. I believe that Christianity without discipleship is Christianity without Christ.

4:24 PM  
Blogger Royce Ogle said...

"3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time." (1 Cor 15:3-8)

"For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake." (2 Cor 4:5)

It is an old, worn cliche' but still true, "Lets keep the main thing the main thing".

If in our preaching we are majoring on any subject other than the living Lord Jesus Christ we are in trouble. It is one thing to know about Him, but quite another to know Him.

Preaching a methodology or a pattern is not preaching Christ. Preaching about a church is not preaching Christ. Preaching about how right we are is not preaching Christ. Only Christ can save, we must preach the good news about Him and do it in His power and authority. Only then will we really be right.

Grace and Peace,
Royce Ogle

8:25 PM  
Blogger Mike Exum said...

Royce,

Amen, Brutha!

7:43 AM  
Blogger ftwskies said...

Seems to me we find ourselves right smack dab in the middle of the second century all over again. By AD150, all the apostles were dead and gone, and those with first-hand memories were aging and some had passed. As the gospel spread throughout the Hellenized world, a lot of different ideas about what it all meant and how to apply it were out there. In the face of heresies such as gnosticism, the church saw no choice but to begin to construct a definition of what it really meant to be a Christian, so as to have a standard by which to judge various doctrines. What started as simply "Jesus is Lord!" quickly became a creedal statement and eventually an entire catechism, as one by one, doctrinal litmus tests were incorporated to combat various false teachings.

Of course, when you refer to various doctrines as "heresies" it turns everything into white hats and black hats, good guys and bad guys. But to folks at the time, it would've just been a variety of ideas, teachings, doctrines, and the like that were available in the marketplace of ideas. It took authority -- the authority of bishops and councils -- to referee the cacophany.

Today, what with blogs, podcasts and the like, access to all sorts of perspectives and viewpoints is unlimited to the average disciple. The cacophany, as it were, is deafening. And we're all left to scratch out our own meager understandings of what it all means to be a Christian, and we try to grasp some definition by which to measure and weigh the vast plurality of teaching that's out there. Without it, we can't really even understand or evaluate our own beliefs, much less those of others around us.

What's different this time around is that we're post-Enlightenment and carry all sorts of notions about figuring things out for ourselves, as opposed to meekly submitting to the authority of a church to tell us right from wrong, who's in and who's out.

Logic and reason didn't get us there. Scripture, while "authoritative", doesn't lend itself to any one interpretation by consensus. So what authority is left to save us from this house of mirrors?

Will the real Truth please stand up?

--Jim <><

7:32 PM  
Blogger Mike Exum said...

Jim,

Maybe I am with ya, maybe not. Not sure.

I believe truth is relative, but I do not believe it means anything goes. I do not believe the postmodern world will disintegrate into my truth/your truth etc. YHWH is still the author of this cosmic story.

But I get the idea that you seem to hold a viewpoint from which there is not much point in having this discussion (except that you participated). I don't see much point in it from my vantage. I doubt we all come to a consensus, and if we did would we be right?

On the other hand, we all get to put in our impotent two cents worth yada yada yada.... And what does it matter?

Or someone gets riled up. Huff huff.... Who cares?

I put in my amens to the voice of Love. I support that. I think it is the point, though not particularly that simple. But love is at the heart of anything that matters, and it colors anything that lasts. So, I amen the love stuff.

Beyond that, I don't see much point in the discussion. An excercise in what?

But if we love one another here and in our physical/personal communities, what ever else, we will have done something worthwhile.

And by the way, I always think about God and life and theology etc on my blog too. If it matters... great. If it ministers someone, be blessed. If it convicts sin, deal with it. If none of these, change the channel. Which many do.

Don't really know if I feel ya or not. But it seemed like maybe so.

Many blessings...

8:25 PM  
Blogger ftwskies said...

Thanks, Mike.

My point is that before we can have constructive dialog on what is "essential" doctrine, we first need to zoom out and establish a framework for discerning the absolute truth we (mostly) claim to believe in. I'm not at all an advocate of "anything goes", in fact quite the opposite; but I'm troubled by the realization that we seem to have an authority vacuum when it comes to establishing what is bedrock truth. It's like the ground has been pulled out from under us, and "our feet are planted firmly in midair." As much as we'd like to believe there's an absolutely, objectively correct interpretation of scripture extant in the mind of God (from which right doctrine could be deduced by reason), it's not entirely clear whether we're left with any means of accessing it here and now. As I said in my previous post, Enlightenment rationalism didn't get us any sort of consensus on it. We'd like to call Scripture our authority, but which reading of scripture: yours, mine or someone else's? See, we're left needing an uber-authority to referee which interpretation is most faithful to the authors' intended meaning. So we fall back to the Holy Spirit; but how many different people have had different contradictory ideas, and claimed the Spirit as their source? So we need a referee for that as well.

Ultimately, Jesus Himself (we're told in Hebrews) was the complete and ultimate revelation of God. But we don't exactly have Jesus, do we? We have words about Jesus in a book. And words are language, and language is limited in it's ability to convey meaning with precision. So...

How do we have Jesus without words? Practically speaking, is there a Jesus for us today that transcends the limited language of scripture? And if so, how do we get at Him?

-- Jim <><

11:51 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Keith,
Love is the core doctrine that everything else flows from. God loved the word (me) so I respond to God with loving him and my neighbor as myself. I love your quote and totally agree with "Christianity without discipleship is Christianity without Christ." Powerful. Thank you for your continued discussion.

Royce,
Thank you for you thoughts.
I apprecaite you adding to the discussion.
Great thoughts brother.

Mike,
Thanks for your continued discussion and thoughts.
I believe that with truth there has to be absolutes. Right and Wrong. The word of God is truth and because it is truth I can trust it. Count on it.
More and more I see Christians who don't really believe the Bible has authority of is real truth. You see Christians saying,"Well it out dated, not applicable, it is culteral and we should change it fit our culture." I believe the Bible is inspired and truth and that it does tell us what matters. Yes I agree with you that love is an essential doctrine that we must follow above all things in order to please God. In order to put a smile on his face. I believe the way to be come a disciple is an essential doctrine. I believe discipleship itself is an essential doctrine. Why? The word says so. I believe we as Christians should base our opinions, values, on what the word says.
Mike again great thoughts and discussion.

Jim,
Thank you for stopping by and adding to the discussion as well.
I believe the Bible itself is the litmus test. We don't need a Jesus of today. The Bible, it stands on its own. Scripture tells us that God has made himself known. Romans 1 and that no man is without excuse. I don't think the Bible is really that hard to undertand when it comes to what God desires. Fear God and keep his commandments (No I am not a legalist)I believe God desires a Relationship, obedience, faithfulenss, commitment.
Thanks you again for adding to this discussion and stopping by my blog. Love for you to post anytime on any subject.

12:31 AM  
Anonymous Bill said...

Preacherman,
Thank you for making us think once again.
I agree with you readers that love is the first essential that we must follow and have in our lives. Believing in Jesus is essential. That he was the son of God, died and rose again. The plan of salvation or the way one becomes a Christian is essential. Baptism. Even how we worship is essential to our salvation. We shouldn't use instruments. I believe worshiping with instruments would be something that is essential to our salvaiton. We do tend to set it aside some essentials for the sake of not offendng.

8:20 AM  
Blogger Alan said...

It is all about love. But you can't separate loving God from keeping his commandments.

Joh 14:23-24 Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

1Jo 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

8:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Doctrine
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : DOGMA c : a principle of law established through past decisions

PM just my opinion as you asked for. We should stick to the doctrine of Christ. When we don't we are creating our own doctrine or following a dogma created by others. I believe we can use differing forums to teach the doctrine of christ, but when we start teaching out thoughts on the doctrine we create our own,
L.Meredith

9:33 AM  
Blogger ftwskies said...

Preacherman

Thanks for the invite. Believe me when I say I'm on the same side of the fence as you on the whole absolute truth thing. I believe there is an absolute truth and I really, really want to know it in its entirety. My concern is my ability to wholly and completely access that truth in a doctrinal sense. And my concern is justified, I feel, by the vast number of different understandings of the scriptures from which I hope to discern that truth.

To clarify my earlier post: I'm not looking for a different Jesus for today, I want the same Jesus, the one and only real Jesus. I'm just presently stuck on the realization that the only access I've got to that real Jesus is the scripture that tells me about Him. If my understanding of that scripture is different from someone else's, then which one of us is seeing the real Jesus and which one is seeing a distortion? Who's to say? (Again, I ask because I really want to know, not because I want to evade knowing.) I want a perfectly objective (i.e., super-natural) referee to make the call for me, so I can know if I'm on the right track or not. I'm frustrated that instead all we seem to have is each other, with all of our imperfect lenses and cultural biases; the whole thing turns into a house of mirrors, and I can never really be sure that I've got correct doctrine, see?

When I was younger, I had only really ever been exposed to one way of interpreting the scriptures, and so it was easy for me to write other people off as being insincere, unintelligent or even dishonest when their beliefs were contrary to my own. With age, a little wisdom, and the internet I've been thoroughly disabused of that notion. I realize now that ten different people -- all of them intelligent and sincere -- can read the same passage and get ten different ideas about what it means and how it ought to be applied. And now all ten of them have internet blogs and share their various ideas and they all sound equally plausible to me, depending upon the time of day and what I ate for lunch and how things are going at home and so forth.

And thus my original observation, that we seem to be right back in the second century (or, reading Mike Cope today, maybe not even out of the first century) in this quagmire of trying to hash out a definition of Christianity (which I think is really the point of your original post -- discerning "essential doctrines"). The early answer was to create the idea of "the church" as an entity distinct from it's lay membership so that we could have an infallible referee. The bishops were embued with a claim to apostolic succession (and thereby apostolic authority) and whatever they said, went.

Forgive me if I'm skeptical about that happening again in today's culture. Not that I even think that's the right answer. But if it's not, then what is?

Trust that I have plenty of faith. It's the certitude of my youth that I so dearly miss. In the end, I come back full circle to this wide-open starting point that Paul gave us: "Jesus is Lord!" The rest is, as they say, just details. Trying to nail down anything more specific than that one essential creedal assertion is, in my opinion, the first step down the dead-end street called religion.

-- Jim <><

10:22 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Alan,
Thank you for showing us that love and obedience go hand in hand.

L.E.,
I totally agree with you that we should teach and preach Christ. We must not follow the dogma of man or human regulations. Great point. Thanks for adding to the discussion.

Jim,
You asked some great but difficult questions. Thank you for making me think as well. I appreciate your thoughts.

3:00 PM  
Blogger Chance said...

Good questions. I think the main thing is to focus on Jesus Christ. Various denominations disagree on the role of grace and works, but I think if one focuses on Jesus Christ, that will help (after all, we have to depend on Christ to do good works anyway). I think it is okay for a church to have doctrines on predestination, eternal security (or lack thereof), but they should not be the focus. Also, sometimes churches seem to focus on tertiary issues such as politics or whether or not someone believes in evolution. I feel that sometimes non-believers feel that if they have to accept Christ they have to become a conservative who believes in a 6000 year old earth, but I think it is important that people realize that if you believe in Christ, that is absolutely essential, and if you believe in the complete Bible, that is excellent (can you have the 1st without the 2nd, that is another debate), but other issues are secondary.

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I'm love sport and... Hope you understand

[img]http://loveepicentre.com/uploades/photos/30375.jpg[/img]

www.blogger.com is very interesting forum for me, so I think we have the same hobbies
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My e-mail is marypopovaks@gmail.com, Skype *
Send me your foto!

__
Added later:

This photography is corrupted, sorry!

Oh, and all my photos here:
http://loveepicentre.com/user/Popova

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