preacherman

Tuesday, October 24, 2006

Women's Role In The Church

I was education and worship coordinator at one of my jobs. It was my job to find men to serve (wait on the table, prayers, scripture reading, etc) during worship. It is definately the hardest job in the church. How many able men when asked would say no. Would you mind? No. Sometimes even before I asked they would say, "No!" Have any of you experienced this problem?

So if the men aren't willing to do it, that leaves who, the minister or the? Women? Is mens lack of leadership in the church causing the women to take a more active role in some churches?

The texts of 1 Corinthians 14:26-39; 1 Timothy 2:11-14 mentions that women should remain silent in church. What do these texts mean? Are they cultural or literal? What does this tell us about leadership in the church? Do we want to ignore texts because they don't agree with society or culture? Can we change the text in the society in which we live?
Does being one in Christ mean that we have the same roles in the church?

I believe we have put to much emphasis on those who lead worship being the most important part of the body. Have we made women feel like second class Christians? Do we understand that men and women are not the same? Each function differently would that not be the same in the church as well?

How can we encourage women that they are a vital part of the body of Christ? How can women use their talents and gifts that God has given them? What ways can they serve and make a difference for the kingdom of God? What do you think a woman can do in worship? Why?
Should the men stand up and take the lead?
If you are a women in the church how do you feel about though they church has treated women and their roles? Share your thoughts about this issue.

Do you think we will see women taking a more active role in worship in the future or will they be making an impact doing other ministries and serving in other ways?
What do you think?
Share your thoughts.

71 Comments:

Blogger Alan said...

If a church is turning to the women to serve because the men are not willing, then there is a problem...and giving roles to women will not solve the problem.

Beyond that... I am not at all comfortable with classifying the instructions of 1 Cor 14 as cultural and irrelevant to our churches today, for several reasons:

1) The reasons Paul gives for his position (verse 36) are not cultural.

2) Paul says this was not just a command for Corinth, but "all the churches". That would include Jerusalem. It is hard to imagine two cultures more different than Corinth and Jerusalem. The command applied to both despite their cultural differences.

3) In verses 37-38 Paul made it clear that this was the Lord's command. He apparently felt the command would be unpopular and resisted, but nevertheless it was a command to be obeyed. It would be difficult to find a more emphatic statement of a command in the New Testament.

4) If we are free to determine which scriptures apply to our culture and which do not, where do we draw the line? I am reminded of this year's conventions in the Presbyterian and Episcopal churches in which they debated whether homosexuality is sin, and in which the Episcopals (unless I have the two confused) redefined the Trinity from "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" to "Mother, Child, and Womb". I don't think God has given us the right to treat his Word that way.

It's not a popular position but then it's not the only biblical Christian teaching that is unpopular.

10:04 PM  
Blogger Velcro said...

If I'm drowning, and a woman throws me a life saver, I'm going to take it.

11:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What if the life saver is defected and can't be used to save your life? The life saver wasn't made that way.

11:59 AM  
Blogger Laymond said...

I just posted on this very subject chec it out I know the who subject is controversal.

2:42 PM  
Anonymous David said...

Preacherman,
Great thoughts and questions once again. You do like opening up a big can of worms time after time, don't you.
I believe men should be the leaders of the church. We should run things. I believe women are to be submissive and quiet in nature.
God created each of us different.
There are things in the Bible I may not like but if God says it. I am going to have to obey it. I women need to suck it up and understand that they have their role and place.
The church is different from the world. In the world women can be in positions of authority but in the church which is different; spiritual, eternal, God wants it done a certain way. We should understand that "God is God, his ways are not our ways, nor our thoughts his thoughts."

3:03 PM  
Anonymous DD said...

God gave men the responsibility of being leaders. It is not up to us to change that order.

As a woman I have noticed that whenever women take over...anything...PTA, whatever...very often the men step back and let them run things.

God gave women a different role in life from that of a man, and I cherish what He has allowed me to do in being a daughter, wife, mother, grandmother, Bible class teacher, caregiver within the congregation and my neighborhood whenever there is a need. I can take a loaf of home baked bread or a pot of soup and sit and listen as someone pours out their heart.

Public participation in worship is not what puts a woman on an equal footing with man. She is equal in God's site by being washed in the blood of the Lamb, but the Scriptures that put her in submission to man who is in submission to Christ who is in submission to God are still there!

8:39 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Alan,
I appreciate you adding to the discussion and giving your view of 1st Corinthians 14. You make great points. It seem like many want to make scripture only relevant to what they want or think or feel comfortable with. When we do that what does that do to our belief in the inspired word? I have been at a wide variety of churches and the churches that I have been at that are moving towards women taking a more active role in leadership positions in the church view scripture in a cultural context.

Wow, a proverb from the Prophet. My question is are we drowning and do we need the women to rescue us? What do you think?

Anonymous I take it that your refering the church and the role of women being the life saver in defectiveness of the church, or do your mean their role being defective? What does your comment mean?

David,
Thanks for yourcomments and adding to this discussion. I know many Christians who take your view of women's role in the church. I have been at churches who believe the way you are talking. Yes, the church is different from the world and God's ways aren't are ways but do we make our thoughts his thoughts? Our ways his ways instead of the other way around when it comes to this issue? Are churches trying to change His ways?

L.E.,
You have a good post on this subject as well. I encourage anyone to add to the discussion on his blog too.

DD,
I appreciate your comments and adding to this discussion. I think it is great to have a womens perspective on the matter and you make great points as far as the ways that women can make a differnce in the Kingdom. Again, I appreciate you adding to the discussion and would love for you any time to comment on my blog. Thanks again and God bless.

12:36 AM  
Blogger Stoned-Campbell Disciple said...

Isn't it their role to be silent? :-)

Or is it that they just can't get around a microphone?

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine

1:06 AM  
Blogger Stoned-Campbell Disciple said...

I have a couple of posts on the role of women or better women in the Bible:

On Huldah as a Prophet:
http://stoned-campbelldisciple.blogspot.com/2006/06/huldah-who-forgotten-ministry-of-lady.html

And

What Did God Say? A Look at Genesis 2.18b
http://stoned-campbelldisciple.blogspot.com/2006/07/what-did-god-say-genesis-2.html

Perhaps your readers will find these pieces interesting.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine

1:13 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Bobby,

Don't tell that to my wife or yours either! I learned that the heard way. I've still got the knot to prove it.
:-)
Thanks for comming by and adding to the discussion and the great links. I appreciate it and hope everyone see's what you have written on this subject.

1:52 AM  
Blogger Laymond said...

Preacherman; I have one question, if women have a lesser role in religion or worship; are they held to the same commandments as men. and if they are, do you think that fair of God to restrict their work but demand the same results as men? just something to think on.
or maybe God don't hold women to the same standard-just asking.

8:47 AM  
Blogger JD said...

Preacherman, my beef with 'our' typical approach to this is that we try to make up rules about things the Bible writers could not possibly have had in mind. For instance, 'we' prohibit women from serving the Lord's supper. WHY??? A woman cannot start a song. A woman cannot be an usher. A woman cannot express a prayer audibly. With no "church buildings" in the first century, most of these scenarios did not exist. So why do we perpetuate these man-made rules as if God put them into place?

9:08 AM  
Blogger Little Light said...

Serving the Lord's Supper, if anything, is a woman's role, isn't it?

Not all of the churches who support full women's participation do it for cultural reasons - that's a very simple way of saying that you're thoughtful and Biblical and the other person is merely influenced by society and popularity or pride or whatever. Who cares if it's popular or not - people are capable of moving beyond that influence regardless of where they stand on the issue. It might be helpful to talk to the leadership of those churches to find out their reasons because I know many of them did so prayerfully, and as they see it, scripturally (as most of us in this heritage like to believe we're being scriptural).

There are people much more qualified to argue the Bible verses than I am, I just don't think that using the cultural - shall I say "card" - is a fair measure when that's not the only reason churches have made the decisions they have.

10:24 AM  
Blogger Milly said...

Reality women aren’t silent in church. It’s so darn interesting to me how we seem to pick at scripture. As for the microphone, I work sound so I can be around one.

If you take the time to actually read the Bible, all of it, you will see that women spoke, they were profits, they lead the family, Jesus valued them enough to go to one when he was resurrected, oh a silent women I think not! I was raised CoC so I’ve heard it. I was also raised to study and think.
If you think that the women are silent and don’t have leadership rolls in most churches, you’re sitting in the dark. I also speak to the minister and the elders one on one when I have something to say. My God given rights are used, and yes I still attend a CoC.
.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

10:25 AM  
Blogger Laymond said...

If we place all our faith in Paul; do women need to be baptized to be saved?
1Tm:2:15: Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

11:07 AM  
Anonymous Todd said...

L.E.,
And what about the women who can't have children. Are they lost? Come on. We know that isn't what Pual is talking about right. So why do we think he is talking abou the women being quiet in church. What does he mean? Great point.

11:14 AM  
Blogger Alan said...

Milly,

What do you think God was saying to the Corinthian women in 1 Cor 14? It seems clear to me that he was correcting something that the women were doing that they should not have been doing. What do you think it was? Wasn't he saying basically the same thing in 1 Tim 2:12?

Gal 3:28 does not address the role of women in worship. Clearly men and women are equally precious to God. But the scriptures give men and women differing roles, as those two passages illustrate.

Paul (God!) knew it would be controversial when he wrote 1 Cor 14. That is also the case today.

1:27 PM  
Blogger Milly said...

Alan,

It was simple problem solving. Things were going in the wrong direction and Paul was coaching Timothy. Nowhere else does it say women can’t lead. I was one who felt the pulpit is for a man until I actually took the time to study. God has lead me to believe that a woman can lead, they do in the Bible. I’ve seen women youth ministers do a great job at it, the men felt blessed to work beside them. Women lead in so many areas in church and in the outside world. In my opinion if God has given us the talent then we must use it. Do I want to preach? No it’s no my talent. As for serving communion, who put the bread and wine on the first table? Who put the pate down, who passes the plate, that isn’t where our focus should be. If a sister leads in prayer or teaches you something you need to hear then why on earth would we turn away?

And yes I'm still a CoC gal.

2:51 PM  
Blogger Alan said...

Hi Milly,

I agree that it is silly to prohibit women from serving communion. The scriptures speak of restricting public teaching and authority roles. Serving communion is neither.

I also agree that women can lead. I just think that is limited in scripture to leading other women. That doesn't mean I can't learn from a woman. It just limits the setting where that would be appropriate.

Off the top of my head-- the Old Testament women leaders were inspired prophets (receiving direct revelation from God). I don't think we have those today, but if a woman today were an inspired prophet, that would certainly change things.

4:15 PM  
Blogger Laymond said...

alan writes---Paul (God!) knew it would be controversial when he wrote 1 Cor 14. That is also the case today.
This is the problem in a nutshell when people fully believe God wrote the bible. there is no reasoning with those people.
They tell you every word Paul penned was actually written by God.But attend church with this person and you won't see them practicing what they preach, they don't do all Paul (God) tells them to do. If you find one church that does, then I will apoligize.

7:14 PM  
Blogger Larry said...

Right, or wrong; there are untold women who feel they are gagged and chained to their pew by many church leaders.

Is it possible many church leaders hold their sisters under their thumb, afraid they would lose control even by allowing women to participate in the Lord's Supper?

The elders of a COC where I once met publicly denounced a 13-year old girl for inadvertently reading a verse of scripture before the church on a Sunday night service. In my opinion this is going leaps and bounds beyond God's intent.

Please inform me how a woman can remain silent in the church and still be able to sing. She can sing louder than the whole congregation put together and no one complains, but if she starts a song (song leader)she is quickly brought under control.

8:09 PM  
Blogger Keith said...

Preach,
Love the fact that you ask tough questions, thanks for that.

I wonder what Acts 10:34 has to say about this?

8:16 PM  
Blogger Alan said...

I am perplexed at the number of people who are willing to disregard what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 14 and 1 Tim 2:12 about women speaking in church. I am especially disturbed that some apparently do not accept Paul's writing as the word of God. Peter certainly accepted Paul's writings that way (2 Pet 3:15-16). Is the Bible from God, or are we left wondering what God said? If we do not accept the Bible as God's Word, then on what basis do we live as Christians? On what basis do we believe in Jesus? How do we learn his message? It becomes a free-for-all, with everyone doing as he pleases. Without a standard, we are left with the opinions of men. That is a recipe for chaos...everyone doing as he sees fit. And I don't think that is what God called us to do.

9:59 PM  
Anonymous Bill said...

Alan,
Is it that people are ignoring scripture or are they confused about the context in which it was written? What do you think?

11:08 PM  
Blogger Laymond said...

Alan can you please show me in the verses you referenced where Peter said Paul was inspired of God.I only see where he said Paul's writings are sometimes hard to understand.

2Pt: 3:15: And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

12:08 AM  
Blogger Milly said...

Man has for so long attempted to interpret God’s word, leaving way for more church building and controversy we have drawn lines in the sand over and over again some seem to become deep pits that keep us from seeing the light of the truth. The big picture is this when Jesus comes it will end and I doubt that women will be held less then man. We seem to be paying for the sins of our sisters over and over again. Man has forgotten that Adam stood next to her as she tasted the fruit, it never says that he tried to stop her. Why? I think he wanted it also. He also gave blame to her for the sin of both. Women were being disruptive and Paul let them know it had to stop. And so we continue to be silenced in some churches. If you aren’t for women leading then stay out of churches where they do. I encourage you to do a Bible study on women in the Bible, dig into it with an open heart. I’d bet that none of us were actually taught about women in Sunday school.

Peace

1:13 AM  
Blogger Alan said...

LEM,

In verse 16 he says people twist Paul's writings just as they do "the other Scriptures" (Gk graphe, always refers to inspired writings). And if we do that, it is "unto our own destruction".

8:35 AM  
Blogger Alan said...

Bill,

I think it is some of both. Depends on which person.

Milly,

This is a good example of the kind of issues we should not divide over. I have studied this extensively (as have my wife and my daughters. My daughters have written a paper explaining their convictions, which are the same as mine and even go farther than I do). I also recognize that others have a different view.

It does disturb me that some of those with the other view reach that position via a diminished view of Paul's writing and / or of the entire bible. I think that has the potential to undermine the entire belief system.

As I said, I think this is the sort of thing we should not divide over. But I must live by what I believe the scriptures say.

8:42 AM  
Blogger Laymond said...

Alan- The following is what Paul told the church.
1 Cor: 11:1: Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2: Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

You speak of interpretation of Paul. I can only interpret this to say.
You follow me and I follow Christ and neither will go wrong. did I also interpret wrongly where Jesus said in the Gospels "Take up your cross and follow me"
There are many in the church who are good paulinians I prefer to be a good Christian.

9:42 AM  
Anonymous Disciple of Christ said...

Eve lead man to sin. Yes Adam sinned too but it Even who sinned first and led man to sin. Is it fair? NO. But God said it.

Man was created first.
Then Eve as a helper or helpmate. Yes look at Genesis and that is the woman's role.
Man is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.
So as Man is the head of the wife and Christ the church seems to make sense the men should lead and women follow their lead in the Church.

Since Christ is the head and it is His Church, bought by his blood, should we do it the way he wants it done?

Christians are called to submit. We submit to Christ. We submit to authorities. We submit to each other. Submit doesn't mean your any lesser of a person. Or that you don't matter in the body of Christ.

I hope that women will understand that there is so much more that needs to be done than leadership.

9:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with disciple.
Amen! and Amen!

10:06 AM  
Blogger Milly said...

In no way does a line in the sand divide us. I will continue to attend a CoC until God says other wise. I am married to man that thinks we are equal and that women have a right to lead. My son thinks it’s crazy talk to diminish the roles of women over man’s interpretations. I wasn’t raised to think that man was over woman. I realize that in no way have you said that but we seem to miss the fact that Adam sinned and was given punishment. Women, and I’m sure it isn’t you guys doing this, but we still pay the price for those sins of our sisters. It’s important to study women’s rolls so that our children know the wonderful history just as it is important to study the men. I’m all for unity not a one big church on this earth, too many divisions, I’m for a united in Christ agree or disagree we still should love each other.

As for the word submit I agree it shouldn’t throw up the red flags. It does because for so long women were enslaved. To submit meant to be trampled on. I’m a feminist as you can tell so I’ll admit until I took a long look at the word I wasn’t happy to hear it from a man. And feminist doesn’t always mean anti stay at home mom. {I was one} I’m for supporting each other not hurting each other. I did a few posts on these subjects on my blog some time ago. I tend to get fired up. The important thing is that we study and pray for God to lead us.

10:50 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

What a great discussion going on. Alot of great questions.

L.E.,
You ask a good question: I do believe that Christians will be held to the same standard no matter what sex we are, sex doesn't matter. I do see in scripture that elders, teachers will be judge more stickly. No mention of men or women being held at all to a different standard.

JD,
I want to thank you for adding to this discussion. Yes, the first century church didn't have alot of things we have today: buildings, powerpoint, scirpture doesn't mention song leaders, and countless other things. My first question is: Is it man-made rules or is something that God designed for his church? Second, Are we sending that message that you aren't an important Christian unless you take an active role in leadership or doing something in worship? Have ministers and church leaders failed to show women ministries and ways that they can use their gifts and talents to build up the body of Christ. How showed them how special they are?
Thanks again for your added discussion.

Little Light,
Thank you for stopping by my blog and adding your thought too.

Milly,
Thanks so much for stopping by adding as well.
Just because we are all one in Christ doesn't mean we have the same job. You find in scirpture that we make a body. Eyes, ears, mouth, arms, etc. I believe this issue will never get resolved to everyones satification because of our society. We live in a society where men and women are on equal footing in theory if not always in practice. But there are some roles that even society can't prescribe. A woman can not be a father and a father can't be a mother but how many in our society try to do those very things even though it is impossible. Even single parents see the need for the opposite role model for their child. Isn't also true with the church? It is not always possible to do the others job. Or just becuase you can do someone elses job doesn't mean you should. My wife doesn't think it is fair. Life isn't always fair.

Alan,
Thanks for continuing this great discussion.
In our services (Churches of Christ) we consider the Lord's Supper a leadership role.
Do we as

Larry,
I don't think remaining silent means put a sock in it. He isn't saying that women can't sing. It is more of restrain yourself. Submission issue. Submission does't make you any less of a Christian.


My wife is a strong woman and feels frustrated sometimes because she is a leader-type, but at the same time, she tries to find ways to use her leadership qualities while maintaining what she feels as her sanctioned roles within the church.

I read this to her and she said that when she gets to heaven, she wants to find Eve and have a smackdown.

11:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

First of all, let's make this perfectly clear. I AM A WOMAN.

That being said, here's how I feel about the subject. It doesn't matter whether I am a woman or a man. If I am sitting in a proverbial pew somewhere saying, "I can do it better than he can," or "I should be up there doing that," what I am really doing is not worshipping God with all that I AM. I am sitting there focused on myself and my talents and abilities and not waiting for GOD to show me MY OWN ministry opportunities. Not to mention that at the same time I am nit-picking my brother and talking so loud to myself that I am not hearing God at all.

Aren't we just missing the point? I think we ought to just get out of the way and let God move in HIS CHURCH and not wish for things to change, but work with it AS IT IS.

11:30 AM  
Blogger Milly said...

Anonymous,
I agree I have never done that.
Preacherman,

I read this to her and she said that when she gets to heaven, she wants to find Eve and have a smackdown.


Play the Sara Groves song for her Generations. I too have tasted the fruit of Eve we all most likely have. I actually don’t blame Eve for a mistake that I too have made and so have you men you did it from the get go. I’ve read it over and over again and God punished them both. I wondered if she felt a pain in her heart when Adam turned his back on her? He was with her, he didn’t stop her. He did quickly lay all the blame on her. It’s a lesson in accountability for each of us.

If you wife was about to do something so wrong that it was to change your entire life would you stand next to her and watch, or would you stop her. Adam and Eve never had to deal with the evils that we have to deal with. We have learned to walk away from the fruit, by tasting it. We still go to it and we still nibble. Thank God for forgiveness.

As for the use in talents I think that God gives each one of us individual talents. Even the pew sitters. He loves us all. I’m good with my roll in my church. I listen to a great minister. I speak out when I have a view on something. I just won’t turn away from a sister who was given the talent to preach.

2:31 PM  
Blogger Velcro said...

What should children's church & children's classes be considered. How many men voluntarily fill these roles in the church? Or what about the nursery? As a parent of a 1 1/2 year old, I can tell you that the nursery is a great ministry in the church. How many men fill these roles?

Or are these positions of lesser importance, therefore women are qualified to lead them?

Preacher, got ya again... a question with a question!

I think Anonymous was talking about the lifesaver being defective because I'm such a fatty!

3:13 PM  
Blogger Little Light said...

The Prophet - Did children's church and the nursery exist during the first century church?

Preacherman - I'm thinking we need to back up on all of our assumptions of the scripture and what we think we're reading before we can really move forward with a discussion. A lot of the things that seem so clear to some are not so clear to others and when you divide language and literary techniques, 20 centuries, and yes, culture between the early church and now - I think it's always wise for us to take some time to review.

Now, just somewhat facetiously, I'll say that (as a woman) I think women have a tendency to talk too much and maybe that's what Paul was addressing - the inability to shut one's mouth.

3:59 PM  
Blogger Little Light said...

To clarify my last point (not the point about women talking too much, because I stand by that) I think when culture does come into play, it's more about how any particular culture reads and interprets as well as its overall worldview - not about secular society's non-Christian viewpoint.

4:16 PM  
Blogger Velcro said...

Little Light, thanks for not addressing the fact that I'm a fatty.

4:48 PM  
Blogger Little Light said...

Prophet - I like your cross.

5:06 PM  
Blogger Milly said...

Prophet,

We’re storing for a famine, not fat. Were you asking if we think the roles women have in some churches are lesser. My answer is no all the rolls are important. As for men stepping up I see a lot of it where I attend. We have some great men who work with all ages of kids.


Little Light,

As for women gossiping more than men I don’t see it. I’ve found it’s equal for the most part. Women just take more heat then men because we gave ourselves that title. I’ve spoken to an elder about his little gossip session in the past.

5:07 PM  
Anonymous A Childrens Minister said...

The Prophet,

I am know many men who help in the nursery and teach younger children's classes. I think it is wonderful that children see men willing to take the time and effort to teach them. It sends a great powerful message. I praise God for the men who are willing to do it. I also praise God for the women who are making a differnce in the lives of Children for the sake of the Kingdom by teaching our children. Praise God. Children ministries all over the country are being blessed. I know as one who finds teachers it is important to have any Christian (Man or Woman) willing to teach our children.

Oh, and I just think you are a little chubby, not fat.

5:32 PM  
Blogger Little Light said...

Milly - I'm not talking about gossiping, I'm talking about talking and I don't think most women are aware of how much they talk, but it's a lot more then men in general.

But I agree that men are just as bad about gossip as women are.

5:32 PM  
Anonymous A Childrens Minister said...

Sorry Prophet.
I know that you were addressing your question to Preacherman but just thought I would add my two cents.
If only I could find a cross that big to wear to church.

5:34 PM  
Anonymous Betty said...

Preacherman,

I don't believe that at baptism you become a boy a man. You have in some churches so women who can no longer teach once a boy is baptized. It doesn't make him a man. His a still a boy. Doesn't no more than her. He is still a child. I don't believe at the age of accountablity you young boy have authority over a woman. Those are week arguments to take that many churches have taken. I believe it is a blessing that women are able to teach children. Making a differnce in the life of a child or leading a song? I will take making a difference in the life of the child by molding and shaping their minds into minds of Christ anyday. So many women are refusing to make a differnce by focusing on what they can't do and not seeing the opportunities where they can serve.

6:20 PM  
Blogger Milly said...

Little light,


We don’t agree then again I work with men a lot in and out of church. Location location location If you are with them they will talk. I was however always taught to speak my mind. My father believes in equality and he taught me that.

6:51 PM  
Blogger Heather said...

When Paul was talking in I Tim 2, he said, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence." He said "I". It wasn't God saying, "I" or "I feel like God is wanting women silent." I don't know how women were viewed back then, but I am sure that women were of a more lowly position. I have heard that there was disruption in the church at the time and women and men were seperate in the services and would speak loudly and cause disorder. I don't know how true this is. None of us do. I just know that women were not viewed like they are now.

I think that there is a certain order to things, but what about the gifts that God has given women? I have taught men and women at my church. Our pastor's daughter taught Wed night Bible study which consists of men and women. Do you think that what God has given us isn't allowed to be shared with men? Do you not think for a moment that God can't use us to minister to men? I am submissive to my husband and to my pastor and to the leadership. When God has placed something on my heart to share, I have gone to my pastor and told him what God has placed on my heart and he has allowed me to speak. If he ever tells me no, then I will not. Look at a marriage relationship, is a woman to not share her heart or even share what God has shown her to her husband? YES! Just like he shares with her. So, why can't a woman speak in church before a congregation if it is permitted of her to do so?

Women have so much to offer and not just to the children and other women, but men as well. Where women have weeknesses, men make up for that and where a man is week, a woman makes up for it. Eve came from Adams rib, not his feet. I recommend an awesome book for women and even men to read called Captivating by John and Staci Elderedge. It is an awesome book and it goes into depth about women in the body of Christ and how God sees us. It is an eye opener and full of scriptures concerning this issue and others.

There are women singers and song writers and they lead worship at different churches. Do you think that God isn't in that because they are a woman? I have heard countless women minister in song and God moves through them. They lead worship, not the church. They usher us into the presence of God. I have lead communion on one Sunday and it was an awesome experience. I didn't lead the church, I lead others to partake in communion. God really moved through that. I know because I was there.

So, let me ask this...what about Huldah, Deborah, and other women in the Bible who did awesome things for God? Did they not speak to men and counciled them? Huldah was a prophetess and Deborah was a judge. Deborah even lead an army into battle. Did they lead a church with 4 walls and pews? Did they serve communion or lead worship? No, but they did awesome things for God. He used them mightily.

A church building consists of 4 walls. God isn't limited by them. There are so many churches around the world. The Kingdom of God is you and I. We are all one in the body of Christ. In God's eyes we are all covered by the blood of Jesus. Jesus died for me just like he died for every man out there. There isn't a limit.

I am not sinning when I am (permitted) to speak what God tells me to speak. In fact, I pray that I obey Him.

It is man who has made women less than, not God. Culture has done this, not God. Church as done this, not God.

God gave women a tongue to speak. If He wanted her to be quiet, then why didn't He make her a mute?

10:35 PM  
Blogger Laymond said...

Some of Miss Crosby’s best known hymns are “Saved by Grace” “Blessed Assurance,” “Rescue the Perishing,” “I am Thine, Oh Lord,” “Just a Word for Jesus.” and “Just Keep Me Near the Cross.” She composed with great rapidity and always had her verses complete before committing them to paper. Many years ago Phillips Brooks gave her seventy-five topics and asked her to write topics on them. She composed every one of the hymns before a line of any of them placed on paper.

No more neede to be said.

12:44 AM  
Blogger Milly said...

heather,
Keep using your God given talents.

4:59 AM  
Blogger Laymond said...

The question as I see it was 'What is the role of women in church"?

This is my last comment on this so I will tell you as I have seen it over the past 60 years. "LOVE" is the woman's role. A wife loves her husband enough to let him think he runs things. knowing all along he would still be in bed if not for her. A mother loves her children enough to get them ready each sunday to to present before God. A woman is confident to be able to tell the preacher when she thinks he has strayed fron the scripture. (his answer is you might be right) because his eldery mother is watching. A lady sits correctly singing songs written by other ladies, and really leading from the pews. praising the song leader for his leadership, all the time knowing people would be covering their ears if the ladies wern't singing. yep LOVE that is the role of women in church. and in life.

11:22 AM  
Blogger ANON the comments said...

Thank you one and all,
I have pondered the state of religion in general and the state of the Church specifically and this discussion has cleared up a great deal for me.

We have 50 comments on the questions put before us and 90% of them are at best secular ecstatic utterances. If they are without authority of Scripture, then they are human babblings. When we engage in a "Bible" discussion and a sentence such as, "This is the problem in a nutshell when people fully believe God wrote the bible. there is no reasoning with those people." is allowed to go, for the most part unchallenged, we might as well all start proving our point from Socrates or Sartre or Seuss.

A point was made that "Eve" brought sin into the world and then it was suggested that is why God is punishing women! Read Romans 5:12-19 the subject there is God and Adam. Now the general term for "mankind" is used but the subjects are Jesus Christ and Adam. Eve's name appears no where. Sin did not come THROUGH or BECAUSE of Eve. God made male the spiritual head of mankind from the beginning. Females are not less they are simply as Paul says given this opportunity to teach because of - on behalf of - as a sign to- the angels.

Thank you all for clearing up this matter for me. Truly it seems we still enjoy recess more than the classroom and "God talking to us" than the Bible speaking to us. I can only imagine that "God's voice" in my head must sound a lot like ME telling ME what I want to hear. I know to most I may sound condescending. But honestly can we seriously discuss the "teachings" of Paul when we either don't know them or believe them to be just the opinions of some First Century preacher and not real Bible like Peter's writings or if we lay claim to hearing God telling us things personally? Where is the understanding in that. Where will the wisdom come from that?

-ANON-

11:28 AM  
Blogger Laymond said...

Anon-I lied or told an untruth when I said it would be my last comment, but things change so forgive my not seeing in the future and predicting your comment about me.
You are evedently one of which I was speaking, one who puts the writings of Paul on the level with God. I have great respect for Paul as a devoted desciple of Christ but it is hard for me to place him amoung the Apostles who recieved the breathed out Holy Spirit. You no doubt have read the bible, but have you read about the bible I doubt it. Jesus said accept me without doubt not every thing you read. Question if Paul was indwelled by the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus or at baptism. Why did it take six years, yes six years to start his ministry. The other apostles were taught by and followed Jesus for three years but they took on the job of teaching immediantly after they recieved the breathed into Holy Spirit. Paul did not. It is not herisey to doubt a thing Paul wrote. even Paul knew there were many doubts that he was an apostle equal to the first breathed on apostles, read the times he has to explain and he never really claims to be a breathed on apostle. He tells the church at Corrinth there are those who say I an not an apostle but I am an apostle to you. you need to study about the bible and not just accept what others tell you about the bible.

12:11 PM  
Blogger Chance said...

meredith, no Paul is not on the same level as God, but as far as the Bible is concerned, all the writings are the same. I believe the entire Bible is given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, whether it was the words of Jesus or the words of Paul in the Bible. Are Paul and Jesus equal? By no means. In person, were the words of Jesus more reliable than the words of Paul? I think so. Paul was a man prone to error, and he may have been wrong in some things. Are Jesus' words and Paul's writings the same in the Bible? Absolutely. Because, in the Bible, both were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Paul is not infallible, the Bible is.

1:50 PM  
Blogger Laymond said...

Chance- If you believe Paul's writings and the Gospels correspond to each other I invite you to read my latest blog post (what happened to Mary) I have used enough of preacherman's space all others are welcome as well.

1:59 PM  
Blogger Ancient Wanderer said...

Preacherman- [Blog originator & blog comment monitor]

Yep, that is the end of the limb. I recognize it because that's where I live. :)

ANON-
I like your song but the beat may be a little fast but then you may think it needs to go a little faster. [Waylon & Willie]

Enjoying the disCUSSion ;)

AW

6:44 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

The prophet,

I agree nursery is a great ministry opportunity. I started a children's worship at one of the churches I was at and had couple teach it every Sunday on a rotational basis. It worked great. Husbands and wives working togehter with the children went so good. I have also seen men willing to help with the nursery. My uncle helps at the nusery at my home congregation. I as an education minister in the past I have used men to teach younger classes and it has worked great.
I think any male role model and teacher in a child teaching experience is great for the teacher and the children.

Betty,
Thank you for stopping by and sharing your thoughts.

A Children's Minister,
Thank you also for stopping by and adding to the discussion. I understand the importance of ministering ot children. As I mentioned to the Prophet it is so important to use men who are willing to teach in any age groups. In the churches I have been at there have children without fathers, who needed that male presence. The men who I have had teach have been such an encouragement those single parent children and to all the children.
I hope God continues to bless you in your ministry.

Little light, Milly and L.E. thank you all for your godly attitudes and continuing this great discussion. I know that the church and Chrisitans will always have differing oppinions on this subject and many others as well.
Thanks for your comments and please add to any discussion on this blog. It is so great seeing Christians being Christlike when sharing differing views.

Anon,
Great comments.
I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. It should be the authority of all Christians. I believe since Paul was an apostle and lead by the Holy Spirit as he wrote the letter that he has authority. We should go to the word fo guidance and instruction. Is the instruction clear as it should be sometimes? When reading the Bible will we all have the same opinions. Same ideas. Beliefs. Faith.
Great thoughts and thank you for your comments. Love for you to comment anytime as well.

Chance,
Great comments. I appreciate you adding to the discussion.

L.E.
Great post.
I hope everyone will take a look at your post on womens role and Paul.

A.W.,
That you for stopping by and adding your thoughts and am gald you are enjoying the discussison.


I know that the Christians won't all agree all the time about everything. I hope the we all will be students of the Word. That we will strive to seek what GOd's will is for our lives and for the church. In all things that God's church will bring Him glory. I do believe these subjects need to be talked about and debated and am thankful that we can do it in a Christlike manner as we seek to find what our roles and talents are in the Body of Christ.

11:16 PM  
Blogger KentF said...

As recently as 1870 the church used the noted scripture to not allow women to sing in church - total silence. Reasonable?

The church used extensions of this scripture to fully stand behind women not being allowed to vote up until 1920. Reasonable?

The church has used other scriptures to support slavery, racism and segregation. Reasonable?

Bottom line is - the church's "take" on scripture has changed tremendously over the past 100 years, and will probably change even moreso over the next 100. Reasonable?

5:34 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Darin Hamm has a great post on this subject on his blog. Everyone should check it out. Good thoughts.

3:32 PM  
Blogger JUST me said...

If Mary can carry the Christ child, I'm sure she could stop, show pictures and talk about him, it's her right as a woman and a mother.

12:19 PM  
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