Thursday, January 28, 2010

Thoughts on Faith Part 5!

What kind of God do we believe in? What does that say about us and our faith? Do we put limits and expectations on God and faith? Why? Should we limit God or put him in our own box? When believers limit God or put him in a box what does that say about our faith? Why are some believers more legalistic than others and how does that play a role in the faith of others?

What do you think?
Share your thoughts?


Anonymous laymond said...

Isa:12:2: Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Isa:45:21: Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

This is the God I worship

11:04 PM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

I do think that there are Old Testament Christians Kinney who still hold to the erroneous theology of Job. Christianity is all about good news.. the gospel some preach sounds more like bad news.

4:37 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob, I read your post, that you linked.I don't know how one could read the book of Job and come up with your conclusion.
according to scripture God not only handed Job over to Satan, he instigated the debate. out of the blue according to scripture.

Job:1:8: And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job:1:12: And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

And the confrontation continued in the second chap.

Job:2:2: And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job:2:3: And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job:2:6: And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7:45 PM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

Many folks see it that way Laymond. Job saw it that way. The idea that tragedy (like the earthquake in Haiti) is God's judgment on us is an old idea but IMO not a Christian one.

7:52 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob I agree, we have no proof one way or the other on "natural disasters" so I can't make a judgment on those, but if scripture is accurate we do have an account of what happened with Job, and who the players were. I didn't write it but I have no reason to not accept it.

could I ask why you think it is inaccurate?

7:38 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob, let me backtrack a little, are you saying that all those horrible
events that came about in the old testament were just blamed on him by the people of that day, just as man made and natural events are today.That man hasn't changed all that much.?
hummmm, you could be right, I don't know. but I would still like to know why you think whatever you think about the subject.

7:52 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

Both Job and his friends saw tragedy as the judgment of God.. much of the book is spent with Job's friends blaming him and Job declaring his innocence. People are still seeing tragedy as God's judgment today.. it is an old theology but not a Christian one.

9:09 AM  
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

I believe in a God who believes in us. God believed in Job. God believes in us so much that He decided we were somehow worth His Son's life.

I believe in a God who is specific and explicit about the kind of life He wants for us. He is not arbitrary, nor does He cloak His will for us in hidden laws cloaked by His silence. He sent His Son to live that kind of life as an example for us, not to vaguely hint at rules we must decipher or be damned by our failure.

5:32 PM  
Blogger Paul G said...

(Isa. 12:2) That is a quote from (KJV) and the name Jehovah is not there in the original text.
All Jehovah Witnesses will tell you, that the name 'Jehovah' is rendered or made up, out of the four letters 'YHWH'. These four letters you cannot pronounce.
That is because in the Old Testament God’s NAME was not given. Nobody knew His Name till the Lord God was born into His own creation through the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:32) and from that day on, the whole world new the Name of God 'JESUS' (Emanuel= God with us).
The Scriptures you have quoted, they speak of the savior, and there is no other name given whereby you must be saved, and that is JESUS and not Jehovah. (Acts 4:12)

Laymond; Jehovah is a false god, an imposter who can do nothing for you, not even save you. But whosoever will turn to JESUS will be saved.
God said that His people will know His NAME. (Isa. 52:6)
That will put you into a dangerous position of not knowing God.
Also take in consideration what Jesus said, that 'IF' you do not know that I am He you will die in your sins. (John 8:24)
I think you should seriously seek the Lord while He still is found.

8:06 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Kansas Bob;
You are right that the gospel is all about good news.
But the Bible speaks about God's judgment and His wrath upon all the wicked and the ungodly and to all who do not know God. (2 Thes. 1:8)
New Orleans, Haiti and the tsunami in Ache and India is the divine judgment of our Lord upon all those who practice unrighteousness.
The cup of His wrath will be passed on to every nation against all ungodliness and if our righteousness does not surpass those, then we will perish likewise.

On international TV, I saw a preacher standing on the rubble after the tsunami, with tears in his eyes saying, "I cannot tell this people that God loves them."

I thought to myself, why does he not tell them the truth?

Concerning Job; there was no judgment on Job, except a testing, since the Lord has blessed him after exceedingly more than before.

Job was not righteous in himself, since there is not one person in the whole world who is righteous apart from Jesus Christ.

Job's righteousness was the same as it is today with every born again believer who is in Christ. That is righteousness not by good deeds, but by FAITH in Christ Jesus our Lord which is accredited to us who believe.
And everyone who does NOT believe, God's wrath remains and is condemned to judgment (New Orleans, Haiti etc.)

8:17 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

Paul commented..

"New Orleans, Haiti and the tsunami in Ache and India is the divine judgment of our Lord upon all those who practice unrighteousness."

Do you believe that the Christians killed in those tragedies were also being divinely judged?

9:17 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Oh well,Christians are just collateral damage Bob, not to say anything about all the children, innocent blood. I don't agree with anything Paul says, I don't know just who leads him, but I can't see where he agrees with Jesus, the Son of God who loved his father so much, he laid down his life to obey him.

9:44 AM  
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

Paul, Deuteronomy 24:16 plainly expresses God's intention for punishment to be meted to the one who sins, not to his parents or children or neighbors. Before He gave the law, sin became so rampant at times that His punishment overflowed the basin, just so that it would not continue to another generation.

With the law, He turned over a responsibility for us to judge for ourselves.

And after we proved ourselves wholly inadequate to handle both justice and mercy as He does, He sent His own Son to show us how to live, and to die for our sins so that His justice and mercy might be satisfied.

But you don't believe that the I AM has a Son, so I don't know why I am wasting time and pixels telling you this.

Whoever told - or revealed - to you - anything less than the truth lied to you in an absolutely profane way. Read what God says for yourself. Don't just accept some bill of goods someone pawns off on you as truth. Your soul is at stake, as well as the souls of those you would lead.

Repent. I'm begging you, because the Jesus you profess compels me to express His love for you.

Kinney, laymond, me - any number if us who post and comment here - are willing to turn and admit it when we've held a notion that doesn't square with what God has said.

5:08 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Thank you brothe for sharing your faith with us all. It is encouraging and appreciated.

11:06 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Kansas Bob,
Wonderful thoughts on Job brother! I appreciate your faith and you sharing it with us. You are an encouragement and blessing to my life..Thank you for all you do!

11:07 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Great thoughts.
Thank you for sharing with us.
You are such a blessing to many.
You faith speaks volumes!

11:08 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Paul G,
I believe every believer has different levels of faith. Some stong, some weak. Faith is till faith. I don't understand how you think Jahovah is Satan or other things you believe but I do believe you have faith. Do we have to agree on all things to have faith? Can I believe things differntly and still have faith. I know that Laymond and Kieth are faithful men of God. Do I agree with everything they believe probably not...Yet they are encouraging to my faith. I think we can encourage eachothers faith despite our differences. I am glad that God is the judge and I am not! I dont speculate on what God has done and is doing in the lives of others. I cannot say that natural disasters is God's judgement on other countries for immorality. Is it up to us to say...Can we know what God is up to? I think God is compassionate, gracious, loving. He was that way in old and new testaments. He does not change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

11:13 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Keith, you are such a blesing. Thanks for sharing your faith.

11:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9:57 PM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Kansas Bob;
Thanks for your comment.
You said, "Do you believe that the Christians killed in those tragedies were also divinely judged?"

I don't know whether there were any Christians in those tragedies, but what I do know is, that the devil masquerades himself as a servant of righteousness (Cor.11:14) and likes to be called a Christian.
Perhaps you might prefer the words of Jesus (John 8:44), who said that they were of their Father the devil, and note (verse 31); it was those who believed in Jesus.

Here you can see that it is not those who call themselves Christians or are called Christians, but only those who believe in Jesus, and are born again by the Spirit of God who is the Christians.
They are the Lords possession who have escaped judgment, and can never be judged again, since the Lord Jesus was judged in their place, they are the ones who have received life and life abundant.

Destruction, disaster and calamity which amounts to judgment is only for those who do NOT believe and reject Jesus as the Lord and God, on them God's wrath remains (John 3:36), regardless whether we call them Christians or not.

8:06 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Thanks Keith for your concern about my destiny.
(Deut. 24:16) 'Each will die for their own sin.'
Those in New Orleans, Haiti and India died exactly for their own sin, because their sins have NOT been forgiven, but God's children's sins are forgiven because Jesus died for them.

Keith you said;
"But you don't believe that the 'I AM' has a Son, so I don't know why I am wasting time and pixels telling you this."

Neither would you, IF you would believe that Jesus Christ is the 'I AM'.
It is impossible with a sound mind to believe that the 'I AM' had a Son, a different person or identity than the 'I AM', and both together are one God.

Laymond's theory or doctrine would make a lot more sense, to say that the 'I AM' had a Son, and the 'I AM' is Jehovah and His Son Jesus is Not the Lord God the Almighty.

This is the doctrine of the Jehovah Witnesses.
But both doctrines are unscriptural and dangerously NOT TRUE!

The truth is that Jesus Christ is the ONLY sovereign Lord! (Jude 1:4)
And beside Him there is no other PERSON or identity who is also a God.
Know that the Lord your God is God, (Deut.7:9) Jesus Christ is God over all (Rom.9:5).

Keith; I don't think that you are wasting your time and pixels to know the truth, it is the truth who sets you free, and all those who refuse to love the truth, will believe the lie. (2 Thes. 2:10-11)

Again I'd like you to know, that I am not against you or Laymond, I am for you, so that you would know the truth.
Lots of love Paul

8:17 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Thanks Preacherman for your explanation;
Yes we all have different levels of faith, but the most important question is in whom do we have faith?
If there is only ONE God, then any other god is a false god apart from that ONE God.
Satan is called the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4), but he is NOT the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)
And anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ believes in the devil, the god of this world.

Because Jehovah is not Jesus Christ, therefore Jehovah is the devil, regardless what name you give that god.
You cannot believe in Jesus Christ and in Jehovah! That would mean that you believe in the creator God and in the devil and that would be an IMPOSSIBILLITY.

I believe that the 'I AM' or 'YHWH' is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember that there is no other NAME given, only the NAME of Jesus! (Acts 4:12)
Jesus is the only NAME to be kept Holy! (Mat. 6:9)

Preacherman; the way is so simple that most people will miss it and perish.
IF you have faith in Jesus Christ ONLY, then it is impossible for you or anyone else to fail and perish, since Jesus is a MIGHTY savior and no one will be able to snatch you out of His Hand.

8:28 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

Paul said:

"I don't know whether there were any Christians in those tragedies"

On that we agree Paul. Consequentially I find your explanation to be lacking.

9:17 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I am sorry brother but I completely don't understand how you think Jehovah is Satan. It completely doesn't make sense. I guess you refuse to sing "Hallelujah Praise Jehovah!" I personally believe that Jehovah is God. God Almighty....God with us! How do you come to the conclusion that Jehovah is satan? I have faith in Almighty God, Prince of Peace, Mighty Councelor! I put my faith in God's son Jesus Christ who is the savior of the world. The one who forgives and is gracious to all who recieve the Holy Spirit in their lives. I don't understand everything that God does because I am worthless, human. I yet put my faith and trust and faith in him. Completely...In every situation in life. Giving him everything. Complete surrender! I think it is then that we find the peace that surpasses all understanding even when our faith is hanging on by a string. Thin string. God love and grace is sufficient. Comforting. Compassionate. Gracious! I believe that God's grace is suffient in times of suffering and temptation. I beleive God is compltely and purely just. I beleive that God's grace falls upon all those that suffer. I don't think we can come to the conclusion that God is juding wicked through natural disasters. I don't think God will judge Christians the way he judges unbelievers. I don't think it is up to us to judge whether God is judging New Orleans, America, or Haitti for their sins. We are not God. We do not know everything. Why would a compassionate God allow Christians to suffer in such a way? Why would a loving God allow Children to suffer in such a way? Why would a merciful God allow such things as earthquakes, famines, disease, be a means of judgement on wicked? I don't know everything about God and think that no man can know the purpose or complete will of God. NO ONE! Who are we to judge? Doesn't God tell us not judge that he is the ultimate judge? For the measure we judge we will be judged? Shouldn't we take take haed in not judging what God is doing or what he does? Is that not faith? Trusting God through tough situtuations in life? What do you think?

10:42 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

You personally said, "Jahovah is the devil". I don't understand how you come to that conclusion.

11:04 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I don't understand how you come to believ ethat Jehovah is the devil? Can you explain to us all?

11:22 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

What do think about Jehovah being the devil? Why do you believe this?

11:36 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

I am glad that you are willing to look at this most sensitive issue; 'Who is this God we are supposed to believe'.

Who is this Jehovah?

If this Jehovah is the Lord God the Almighty, then we all, including me should believe and worship this God, and NOT one of us should worship Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

In the Scripture the disciples of Jesus (the believers) worshiped Jesus Christ including me. (Mat. 2:11, 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 18:26, 28:9 and many more).
Remember (Exod. 20:5), 'IF' you worship ANY OTHTER than Jesus Christ you will be utterly destroyed and end up in hell.

If you worship any other person, spirit or identity like Jehovah, Allah, or the Trinity gods, then you are worshiping SATAN!

Preacherman; 'IF' you DO and I know that you do, then you surely will not escape judgment.

Kinney; there is only one way for you and that is that you flee to the Lord your God Jesus Christ, believe only in Him, worship only Him.

Concerning judging;
We do not judge any man, as in sentencing.
But we who are spiritual judge all things (1 Cor. 2:15).
You should judge me, whether that which I am saying is from God, or from men, or from Satan.

I judge everything you or anyone said, whether that which you are saying is from God, from men or the devil. If it is from God, I will give you a big AMEN! If it is from the devil, I will give you a correction or a rebuke.

If we do not judge spiritual things, then we, who know the truth, will let everyone believe whatever they would like to believe and in whomever they would like to believe.
In that case, they are like a herd of oxen going to the slaughter and no one holds them back.

But the Lord has sent the prophets before Him, Israel and the whole world did not believe, then He (the Lord Jesus) came to His own, and they did not receive Him, and then the Lord Jesus sent us, His disciples (me) into the entire world.
What do you think?
If they did not believe the testimony of the prophets and of the Lord Himself, do you think that they would believe my testimony?

9:05 AM  
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

Paul, the Lord God revealed His own name Yahweh - Jehovah; I AM THAT I AM - to Moses in Exodus 3:14. Scripture continues to refer to Him by that name for thousands of years of narrative. He is NOT Satan; He opposes Satan throughout scripture and your conclusion is built on faulty human logic.

You've decided God can't be one and more than one at the same time, and this is simply a false assumption. With God, nothing is impossible. He is Spirit. We can't fully understand or explain that. The wise thing to do is simply to accept that HE IS WHO HE IS, rather than try to box Him in with merely human logic.

8:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1:02 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

An Additional comment;
Before I pick a little splinter from your eye, I had to ask the Lord Jesus to remove the big plank from my own eye.
I hope that you don't hate me, but again I would like to cut a little bit closer to the bone, so to speak.
The 'JESUS' you are worshiping is another Jesus, a false Jesus. He is a different Jesus to the one which I or we preach.
I'll explain;
Because the 'JESUS' you worship is a personal god among two other personal gods or identities, therefore the Jesus you have received is another Jesus a false god.

Just like the Scripture said;
(2 Cor. 11:23) "For if someone comes to you and preaches a JESUS OTHER than the JESUS we preach, or if you received a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. But I do not think that I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostle". I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made that perfectly clear to you in every way."

Kinney; the JESUS you preach is a god next to Jehovah who is also a god.

The JESUS I or we preach is the Lord God the Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth, the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit in the only one person the true God Jesus Christ our Lord and God forever praised.

Any other identity or spirit other than Jesus Christ is certainly SATAN, especially Jehovah and the Trinity!

Those men or song writers who have written those worship songs to Jehovah are blind guides.
Do not believe them, or use their worship lyrics, but rather rebuke them sternly if necessarily.
Lots of love

8:01 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Keith Brenton;
Yahweh and Jehovah is a NAME.
But that is not the Name of God.
Those two names have been made up, or cooked up by some smart fellows out of the four letters 'YHWH'.

The Lord God Jesus Christ of Nazareth did NOT reveal His Name throughout the Old Testament.
Moses wanted to know His Name (Exo.3:14) and Jacob in (Gen.32:29) and Manoah in (Judg.13:18) etc., they all wanted to know the name of God, but His Name was NOT given in the O.T.
The Lord Jesus, the God of the O.T. was known under the title 'LORD' throughout the O.T.

Only in the New Testament, in (Luke 1:31) when Gabriel said to Mary, "You are to give Him the Name JESUS," then the whole world first knew the NAME of God! The Name which is above every Name, that at that NAME (JESUS) every knee ought to bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

O.T. = concealed, N.T. = revealed.

Jesus said in (John 17:6) "I have revealed your Name to those who you gave me out of this world."
And in (John 5:43) Jesus said, "I have come in my Fathers Name, and you do not accept me".
(Isa. 52:6) Jesus said, "My people will know my Name, it is I who has foretold it."

Keith, remember that, I Am, YHWH, Lord, God, Son, Holy Spirit and Father etc. are NOT NAMES! They are titles or descriptions of the ONE deity Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Yes Keith, I really do understand all this things, if I would not understand, then I would be silent.

The Scripture is the Word of God and is designed for all His children to understand.

You should make every efort to understand and then preach it boldly and with great confidence. Because it is not you who does the speaking, but the Holy Spirit in you, and no one will prevail against you!
Lots of love

8:09 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

You are right the Jesus you believe in and Jesus I believe in are different. I believe that God is God...Jesus is God.."He was with God in the beginning...The Word became flesh and dwelt among us!" Jesus was 100% man and 100% God at the same time. Man cannot fatham God. We cannot limit him or box Him in...We in our human minds cannot cantain him. I believe faith is something that is between each individual and God...God knows everything about me. It is up to God and God alone to judge the minds and hearts of men. Faith is individual. Personal. Complicated. I know I am thankful that I serve and worship a graceous God and Savior that loves us despite our many faults. I personally know that I will never know everything about God. His thoughts are not my thougths, his ways are not my ways...Yet despite what God says, does, acts. I serve. I dare not box him in or limit what he can do in the world in which he created. God is God, I am not. I find many times what he does doesn't make sense in my own small human mind yet I follow. That is faith...There are things that happen in life that I don't like or agree with yet I trust. That is faith. I do what I can and believe what I believe according to His word and put my faith and trust in Him. I have learned not to worry about what other people say, or think.

9:17 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

Just a few questions for you Paul.. these are not original.. just trying to understand where you are coming from since you have said that folks who embrace the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are in error:

+ Is Jesus His own Father?

+ If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical, then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father?

+ Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?

+ If Jesus was praying to the divine side of Himself, then isn't He still praying to Himself?

+ Why was Jesus not saying, "Not My will, but MY will be done?" if there is only one person and one will involved when He was praying in Luke 22:42 & Matt. 26:39.

+ At Jesus baptism the Father speaks from heaven and the Holy Spirit descends.. what is your interpretation of this?

I do hope you take the questions seriously and try to answer them to the best of your ability.

9:53 AM  
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

Paul, then I'm sure you're aware of the destiny which awaits those who cannot distinguish evil from good. (Isaiah 5:2, John 5:29). Those, in other words, who would claim that Jehovah, the God whom Jesus called "Father," is in fact Satan.

Islam preaches a Jesus other than the one Paul preached. "Isa" has only the barest resemblance to Jesus. Is that what you're saying that those who believe in God the Father, Jesus the Son and the living Holy Spirit are teaching? (I think you were actually quoting 2 Corinthians 11:4, not 23.)

How can you say "that, I Am, YHWH, Lord, God, Son, Holy Spirit and Father etc. are NOT NAMES! They are titles or descriptions of the ONE deity Jesus Christ of Nazareth."? That's splitting hairs, isn't it? Those are the names, descriptions or title given to deity in scripture - just as is the name Jesus, Immanuel, God With Us, Savior, Master, Teacher.

3:36 PM  
Blogger Paul G said...

You can not believe that God was with another God in the beginning.
If you do, then you believe in two gods.

This is the problem which I have been addressing.

Kinney; this kind of understanding and preaching has polluted all Churches today, and for that reason they are dead.

There is no presence of the Lord Jesus among them, because they have departed from the Lord of glory Jesus Christ our God to ANOTHER god and have transgressed the first and foremost of the Commandments.

If we consistently do that, like the Israelites did, then we will be punished just like them and perish with them.

Yes Kinney; Jesus is 100% man and 100% God.
But what do you do with your OTHER god, you believe in??
You see; that other 'god' is your problem!
That other god will rob you of ALL your blessings in the Lord and drag you into misery, hell and damnation.
That other god which you call Jehovah is in fact the devil who has lead you astray.

Do not believe them or worship them, but turn away from them with all your might and cleave only to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Father, and He will forgive all of your transgressions and lead you in the path of righteousness, blessings and abundant life.
I love you brother,

8:40 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Kansas Bob;
All those passages have also caused a great concern in my own understanding for a time, till I sought the Lord about them.

Bob; I do understand all those passages, but it would be difficult for me to explain them in a few sentences so that everybody can understand them, since they are only understood in the 'order of Melchizadek' in Hebrews chapter 7:1-4 and all the related passages of Melchizadek and his 'order' of the priesthood.
Perhaps in a later time I might explain.

A challenge;
IF Jesus has a Father, who is another identity or person, then Jesus is NOT God but that other person who is called Father.

IF the Father is God AND His Son is also God, then you believe in TWO gods. (Unthinkable)

IF Jesus is praying to another person or identity, then Jesus is NOT the Lord God, but that other person to whom He is praying would be God.

IF both persons and identities are God, then you believe in two gods. (Unthinkable)

IF Jesus is God and is praying to another person who is God, then you have one God praying to another God.
I don't think you want me to give you a comment to that scenario.

IF one person speaks from heaven and another person descends on the person in the water, and each of those persons is a god, then you believe in three gods. (Unthinkable)

IF all those three persons make up, or are one God, then you are confused and lack understanding.

Bob; perhaps you like to rearrange those scenarios, so that they make sense.
Kind regards

8:49 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Keith Brenton;
I hope that I can distinguish evil from good, since Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." (Luke 18:19)
In this passage you can see that the only one who is good is God, and Jesus is without sin, He alone is good and perfect.

Thanks Keith, a mistake on my behalf, it is (2 Cor. 11:4) and not 23.

Concerning names and titles; that is not splitting hairs. It is important to know what a name or a title is.
I am a father, but that is not my name, it is only a description of my position in my house in regards to children.
I am a son, but that is not my name, it's again a description of my position in my father's house etc.

God is not a name; it is the description of the Supreme Deity who's Name is Jesus.
The same is with 'Father'; it is the description of the Creator and Father of His children, who's Name is Jesus.
Likewise 'Son', is the position in the Fathers house, who's Name is Jesus.

(Exo. 34:14) (The Lord, whose name is jealous).

We both know that the Lord's Name is not jealous; it is only a description of Him to describe His jealousy for His bride, so that she (the bride) would not have another person or identity or a god next to Him.

8:56 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

@Paul G - I find it odd that you are quick to demean a trinitarian understanding of God and yet cannot answer a few simple and straightforward questions about your own understanding of God. Perhaps it would be good to get your own thoughts together before you blast those of other sincere believers?

8:57 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Then please give me your explanation, so that it makes sense.

9:06 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

@Paul G - I do not know how we can have a conversation if you are not willing to answer a few simple questions. My only response is to think that you cannot answer them.

If you are looking for an explanation of trinitarian theology you can find it in many places like this one and this one.

9:22 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

There are many sincere people out there, who are sincerely wrong.
That is because sincerity is not the measuring stick of the Scripture.

9:31 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

@Paul G - Okay if you do not want to answer a few simple questions. I hoped that you would try though.

9:57 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob I looked at one of the links you recommended, and found it lacking in their explanation just as all explanations of the trinity come up short.
They said " They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God."
In other words the heavens and earth was without a God for those three days Jesus was dead, and if there was no god during that time, who raised Jesus from that sleep called death.?

Isa:45:21: Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Paul, one question; do you believe Jesus died on the cross? that should be simple enough to answer.
I will answer before you ask the question, the God in which I believe did not die upon that cross.His only begotten son did, the son which I try to follow to the Father who he sits at the right hand of now.

10:05 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

@Laymond - Crucifixion killed Jesus' earthly body but Jesus did not cease to exist when His body died.

10:09 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob said "Jesus did not cease to exist when His body died."

Bob, If Jesus was really God and had always existed, explain what Jesus really gave up for our salvation, an earthly body,an earthly home that he wanted to leave anyway, Just what was proved, what made him different from Lazarus, whose body died and was raised. And as you say if Jesus was God he never really died, did he.
The resurrection of the dead was not unique to Jesus' resurrection, I believe it is said Jesus did it, even Paul claims to have raised the dead.
Bob please explain just what happened at Jesus death. do you know?

12:54 PM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

@Laymond - Lazarus was raised in his same earthly body only to die again. Jesus was raised in a different body to never die.. his perishable body was sown in death and He was raised in an imperishable body.

Regarding what Jesus gave up I refer you to Philippians 2:5-8.. not that I fully understand what it means for God to become man.

You and I have had discussions in the past about the deity of Christ Laymond. I understand where you are coming from and respect your view even though I disagree with it. And I guess I am not up to trading verses with you on the subject today.. maybe another time?

1:17 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob, I know you are a strong believer in the "Trinity doctrine" and I also know that, that doctrine has given rise to most if not all of the disagreements in the Christian religion, when we say god is three but not really, and have so lame an explanation of what we mean, that leaves the door wide open for doctrines such as Paul G.'s to slide right in, when you say you believe in a thing, but cannot explain why, that only proves you don't know why, except you have been told that, and it sounds as if it could be true.
Then we say "God can do all things" that simply put means God does not want all to be saved. There simply is no way we can all become one, until we all come together to worship "ONE" . If Jesus is/was God then Paul G. would have to be right, because there is only ONE almighty God.

1Sam:2:2: There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

4:46 PM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Thanks again for everyone who states their view on this most important question.
'Who is this true God of the Bible?'

It is interesting to see, that we have THREE completely different understandings, teachings and testimonies on that subject.

(1) Laymond thinks that the true God of the Bible is Jehovah and Jesus is His Son, but the Son is NOT God. (Monotheist)

(2) Bob thinks that the God of the Bible is three persons in one God (God in three persons blessed Trinity). The Father is Jehovah, the Son is Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the third person, and each one is a separate person from all the others and all together are one God. (Polytheist)

(3) I believe that the God of the Bible is the person of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the only Lord and God creator of heaven and earth, and beside Him there is no other person, identity or spirit who is included in God. He alone is the Lord God the Almighty. (Monotheist)

There is no other teaching concerning the doctrine of God, perhaps different flavors, but they do not amalgamate at any point, and are the base or foundation of each doctrine.

Because each teaching opposed the others and there cannot be unity among those doctrines, therefore it is of great importance for all of us, that we are on the right side of that question.

6:50 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Laymond; you said,
"Did Jesus die on the cross?"
That is a broad question, because everybody would say 'YES' to your question, even the demons and all the devils know that Jesus died on the cross.
The serious question is, did the Lord God the Almighty die on that cross? Or did another person or identity die on that cross?

(1) Laymond; you believe that God did not die on the cross, but another identity (His Son) died on that cross.

(2) Bob believes that it is the second person who is also a God who died on the cross and not the other two persons.

(3) I believe that the Lord God the Almighty the creator of heaven and earth died on that cross.

Explanation on point (3)
God is Spirit (John 4:24) and it is impossible for a Spirit to die.
Since the Lord Jesus is the Spirit (2 Cor.3:17) it was impossible for Him to die, therefore He had to become a man, or clothe Himself in flesh in order to die the death on the cross for His children.

Explanation of death;
Death is NOT annihilation, it is separation.
A man is made of spirit, soul and body, just like the Lord Jesus, who is also Spirit, soul and body, and we have been created in His (Jesus) likeness.

When a man dies, his body is separated from his soul and spirit.
The body goes to the grave and the spirit and soul goes to the judgment of God and then hell for all of your sins we have committed.
But that is not so with all those who believe in Jesus Christ our Lord and are born again by His Spirit. They have escaped judgment, because the Lord Jesus was judged on their behalf, the judgment which was due to us fell upon Him (Jesus) and by His stripes we are healed.

Laymond; concerning the doctrine of the Trinity; I can see that you understand that the Trinity is an illogic, inconsistent confusion, or in plain words a deception.
Surely I give you an 'amen' on that!

7:05 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Kansas Bob;
You called them "a few simple questions".
If they are that simple, then try to answer them and we will see.

I think that it is impossible that a Trinitarian can answer them so that it makes sense.
But then again, proove me wrong.

I said, that is difficult to explain and can only be understood in Melchizedek.

Try that; Jesus said that the Lord your God is ONE (Mark 12:29), and you say that He is THREE persons.

Jesus said, that He and the Father are ONE (John 10:30), and you say that the Father and the Son are TWO.
Hmmm! There are a lot more of them. :-)

The difference between your belief and Laymond's is, that you are saying 'God is three', and Laymond says that 'God is one' and His Name is Jehovah.
I agree with Leymond, that God is one, but not Jehovah, only Jesus Christ our Lord.

Again I like to say that I am not against you or Laymond or anyone else, only against the unscriptural teachings you both have been told, because they rob you in knowing and believing the truth.
Lots of love

7:11 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

@Paul G - You continually stonewall the conversation speaking of a secret Melchizedekian understanding. If you are not willing to answer the questions then I see no point in continuing it.

8:02 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Paul G. said, "Explanation of death;
Death is NOT annihilation, it is separation."

How true that is, now Paul, tell me what Jesus was separated from while upon the cross.

Let me give you a hint.

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Do you know what Jesus was separated from, his God,Jesus can tell you what it is like to be separated from the one true God.
He didn't like it, and neither will you.
So sad but many of God's children will be calling out the same thing.
" my God where are you"

Bob said "Laymond - Crucifixion killed Jesus' earthly body but Jesus did not cease to exist when His body died."

Bob this is the way Jesus died, "separated from God". Bob you will not cease to exist either at "the first death" that is called "the second death"
Bob, I asked what Jesus gave up on the cross, you seemed not to know, I hope this helps you to understand.
The cross was the first time, Jesus was separated from his Father.The first time he ever carried sins.

The trinity doctrine states the three can not be separated, because if they were "God" would cease to exist. plainly the bible states Jesus was separated from God. And God still reigns in heaven.
"and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."

10:48 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

I am really not up to wrangling Trinity scriptures today but if anyone wants to debate it I noticed that Ian has written about it today on his blog.

1:20 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob, I truly hope you are not relying on what Ian wrote to supplement your belief.
If the scriptures were written with the same proof, they would have been shot down as conjecture. to which the trinity doctrine certainly conforms, at best.and intentional falsehood at worst.

2:39 PM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

Thanks for the advice Laymond.

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Anonymous laymond said...

anything to help Bob :)

7:51 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I believe in the Trinity concept that the Bible talks about throughout all scripture.

10:50 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Paul you mentioned that most Churches are spiritually dead because they deny the power and authority of Jesus Christ. I believe those Churches who are dying and are spiritually dead deny the power and work of the Holy Spirit in the church and in their lives.

10:56 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Laymond; All the passages you have quoted previously and now are speaking of Jesus.
Just look at this quote, "and there is no God beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me."
This quote speaks of Jesus and NOT of Jehovah.
Because there is no other Name given whereby you must be saved, that is only Jesus.
Note, that the savior is Jesus! And only God (Jesus) can save people.

Laymond; you and anyone else can NOT be saved by Jehovah or God. God? Which God?
There is only one true God who can save, and that is ONLY Jesus Christ of Nazareth, He is the true God and eternal life and apart from Him there is no savior.
Jesus is that "God and a Savior" as you have quoted.

You ALWAYS give the glory which belongs to Jesus alone to another person and identity which you call JEHOVAH.
Jehovah is NOT the Lord; he is the devil who would like to be exalted as the Lord.

Laymond; whenever you are on a sick bed or in any kind of trouble and you call upon your god Jehovah to help you. I promise you that he will NEVER turn up. He cannot deliver you out of any calamities or disasters. You need a savior who has all power available to save you out of any catastrophe or disaster, not only when you are dead, but NOW! At the moment when you are in great need.
Only Jesus can do that!

You asked me; "what Jesus was separated from while upon the cross."
Jesus was NOT separated from another person or identity which you call God (Jehovah).
Jesus was separated from the Father! NOT from another person 'God'.
The Father is in Jesus, just as he said in (John 10:38) and the Father is His Spirit, (Holy Spirit) just as it says in (Luke 1:35).
Here you can see that the Holy Spirit in Him (Jesus) is the Father. That is not another person, it is Jesus who is the Spirit; the Father who clothed Himself in flesh (veiled the incarnate deity).

On the cross, Jesus was separated from the Spirit; plainly, His body was separated from the Spirit.
The same is when we die; our body will be separated from our spirit and soul.
The body goes to the ground, the spirit and soul goes to judgment and then to everlasting torment hell.
But that is not so with those who are saved, believe in Jesus and are born again.
They have passed out of judgment, because Jesus was judged on their behalf and they have received the free gift of God, eternal life, which is only in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Absence from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Since the Lord Jesus is the Lord God the Almighty, death could not hold Him in its power and He rose on the third day. Therefore Jesus is alive forevermore; but this time it is with a new body, a resurrection body, the same resurrection body which all of us who believe in Jesus will receive at the resurrection from the dead.

Great stuff! And an interesting study through the Scripture.
Enough for now,

7:52 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Kansas Bob;
Oh, how the mighty have fallen!

Ian said; "I'm also an atheist, both in the sense of not-believing-there-is-a-God, and believing-there-is-no-God."

I hope that you don't want me to give a comment on that.

Bob, I do not question Ian, but I seriously question you.

I wonder which one of your three persons who are gods do you preach?
Why do you need to believe in three?
Would it not be easier to believe in one?
Soon or later you have to deal with that great deception the Trinity.

7:56 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

There’s no Trinity or Trinity concept in the Bible.
This teaching came into circulation in the late first century by the rise of the Antichrist the man of sin who had to be revealed.
And now has polluted all or most Churches today.
Before the Antichrist, the man of sin was revealed nobody believed in the Trinity, certainly not the Apostles.

I agree with your comment, "that they deny the power and the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church and in their lives."

7:59 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

Glad you caught the irony Paul.. wondered if you would actually check out Ian's blog.. thought that an atheist might be a worthy debater for you :)

Still no answers for the simple questions?

8:27 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

I quote you Paul G. "because Jesus was judged on their behalf and they have received the free gift of God,"

Can you tell me who the judge was that judged Jesus.?

6:50 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes Laymond;
It was God who clothed Himself in flesh and became a man just like one of us, Jesus Christ the carpenter from Galilee.
God came in bodily form and walking among us, just like a brother.
This is too beautiful and marvelous to know and believe.

Therefore Jesus laid upon Himself, (on His flesh) the iniquity of us all.
Plainly; Jesus judged Himself, because there was NO other God, person or identity to judge Him.
Just like in Genesis 22:16 Jesus swore by Himself because there was non greater one to be found.

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