Monday, January 11, 2010

Thoughts On Faith Part 3!

When it comes to faith, who do we put our faith in? Is it God? The Trinity? The Bible? The Church? Can we have faith without excepting the Bible as the inspired Word of God? Can we have faith in God and not the Trinity? Can you have faith without putting your faith in the Church? Do some have more faith in the Bible than they do God? Why? Do some put their faith in the church moreso than God? Why? Can we have faith in ourselves and God? Is that faith? Can we have faith in God without being a prayerful person or a person in the Word?

What do you think?
Share your thoughts?


Anonymous Anonymous said...

My faith is primarily in Jesus as the incarnation of God, my saviour king and redeemer who permits me to come into relationship with God the Father. Faith in the Trinity IS faith in God as God is the Trinity. God is the triune God, not just the Father. We need faith in all three persons of the trinity, not just the Father, or Jesus but the Holy Spirit too. I have faith that the Bible is the revealed Word but the Bible attests to God. My faith is not IN the Bible - that would make me a bibliolator (is that a real word? lol) I believe the Bible is the inspired Word but my views on inerrancy and inspiration are probably not as literal as some. Some have more faith in the church than in God as the church is visible (well the local church is) and the church often demands finite and not very demanding things of us, whereas God requires so much more.

We can have faith without being prayerful or much in the Word, but that's not going to be more than a germinal or very one dimensional faith. Whether it can be a saving faith is not for us to judge (of others). But God requires us to draw close to Him and know Him (and obey his commands to love Him and our neighbours), and the way we do that is in prayer and being in the Word.

6:52 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

I'm glad that you have asked that question;
"Who do we put our faith in?"
This is the most IMPORTANT question!

Do we put our faith in Jehovah, Allah, Yahweh, or in the gods, Krishna, Buddha and Santa Claus or in a rabbit-foot?
Perhaps you might say; we put our faith in God.
Yes that's right but IN WHICH ONE??

In the Old Testament the Lord of host 'Jesus Christ' always charged Israel from falling away from Him to serve other gods and to burn incense to them.
In doing so they transgressed the first and foremost of all the commandments and the Lord punished them severely.
Even then, they hardened their hearts and stiffen their necks and would NOT turn away from their gods and so to believe and have faith in the only one God Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

The same charge as it was to Israel, so it is to the Churches of to day, the Christian Churches who are called by His Name.

If you or I or anyone else put our faith in any other NAME than Jesus Christ, then our faith is useless and it profits us nothing.
May as well put our faith in Santa Claus; at least we might expect a 'presi' at Christmas. :-)

As to faith in Jesus;
Jesus said; 'These people honor me with their lips, but with their hearts they are far from me!'

If any man or woman is willing to put their faith ONLY in Jesus Christ our Lord and God, then the mountains will be moved.
By that I mean; an UNDIVIDED faith in Jesus, since you cannot serve two masters, two persons or identities (gods) etc.

Brothers and sisters;
Jesus said that 'narrow is the way and only FEW are those who find it' (Matt. 7:14)
So then, make every effort to enter the narrow way and put your faith only in Jesus Christ our Lord and God and you will NOT be disappointed.
Lots of Love

8:16 AM  
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

My blogging pal laymond has succeeded in making me re-think the concept of Trinity. I've resolved not to use the word anymore. It's not in the Bible, and while it's one way of describing the relationship among the personages of God, I can't say that it's the be-all and end-all of accurate descriptors. The relationship and the Person seems much more complex than we can describe in a single handy-dandy word. He is One. He is also Three. But His presence is also manifold - inasmuch as His Spirit indwells many, the body of Christ.

We put our faith in God through Christ. We know of Christ the Word through the written word, the Bible, and are guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit, the Comforter. The church is the bride and body of Christ in this world - hopefully still inspired by that Spirit - but it's mainly just us. We're free to do as we please, but need to be bound to do as He pleases.

The church and the Bible are more or less concrete. You can touch Bible, riffle its pages; you can shake hands with a brother in Christ, ruffle his feathers. It's easy to believe in what you can see and touch.

It's much more challenging to believe in the unseen, invisible, immortal God.

Prayer gives us an opportunity to contact the unseen, speak to One who listens, ask from One who gives.

But I also believe we can hear Him ... if we're listening.

9:42 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Kieth said "We put our faith in God through Christ."
I say Amen, if The Father does not hold up his part of the covenant, then Christ's blood will be spilled
for naught. And the "Good News" brought by The Son, will not be so good.Faith (In my opinion) simply means TRUST. Yes as Keith said we must trust that the message from God, delivered by Jesus is true and complete(completely true, a partial truth is a lie) In other words you cannot trust in one without trust in the other. Thus come to the Father through the Son. We believe in the author, through the message delivered by the messenger.This is why I so adamantly stand for Jesus when he said "The Father is greater than I" You can't get by on Partial faith/trust. I don't know how anyone could put total trust in a liar, and as I said a partial truth is nothing but a lie.

8:15 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Keith Brenton;
It seems to me that you think that there is a relationship between your many god persons or god people (the gods).
You also said, "That He is also Three".

Keith, you should know not to make such a statement.
It is impossible for 'HIM' to be MANY!
HE is singular (ONE) and THREE are (MANY), (THEY) plural.
Throughout all Scripture the Lord our God is always addressed as 'HE' or 'HIM'.

Again it seems to me that you put your faith in TOM through HARRY!

Keith; that kind of understanding and reasoning always trouble me greatly.

I am sure that you can hear Jesus if you are listening to HIM, but if you are listening to THEM, then you might not be able to hear HIM.
Kind regards

9:24 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

God is the father, our "Abba". Jesus is God's son..."The Son of God". John states that he was with God in the beginning..."The Word became flesh." He was both human and divine. The Holy Spirit is also God..."Our comforter" which lives within those who accept Christ. I believe Keith would agree that there is not three God's but one. There are somethings we as his creation will never understand. Can we really have faith that God our Father excepts without claiming that Jesus was divine? Can we have a faith that God our Fahter excepts without execpting the power and authority of the Holy Spirit in our lives? I know some believers think the Holy Spirit is on the written word of God..Where is that in the Bible? Can we have faith, a pleasing faith, by denying his Spirit lives within us? Is that faith?

10:25 AM  
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

Paul - all due respect - but God simply transcends our ability to completely understand His nature.

He doesn't fit in our logic boxes.

He doesn't obey our rules.

He doesn't stay in our tombs.

He is reason and passion; mercy and justice; forgiveness and righteousness; law and love; kindness and severity; natural and supernatural.

Fortunately, you can read Job and pretty quickly deduce that it's not at all necessary to completely understand God in order to believe in Him, love Him, and serve Him.

You, my brother, should not make a statement like "It is impossible for 'HIM' to be MANY!"

With God, all things are possible. (Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 18:27)

10:51 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Jesus said there is but one God, but unlike Paul G he claimed he was not that one God.

Mk: 10:18: And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Mk: 12:29: And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

If anyone knew what he was talking about it should be Jesus.

12:10 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

So are you saying that Jesus was not God?? Was he divine?? Can God still be God and man at the same time??

12:16 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Preacherman, I'm not saying anything, you see I didn't write
Mk 10:18 or Mk; 12:29

You asked "Can God still be God and man at the same time??"

No but Jesus, his Son could. As you might recall Jesus (God's Son) said "God is spirit and must be worshiped in spirit" you know, facts might not back up what one believes, but facts are still facts.

1:48 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

PM. you asked "So are you saying that Jesus was not God?? Was he divine??" No Kinney I only have the same book you have to help form my opinions of the relationship of God and his Son Jesus.
Lets look at col:1 and see if brother Paul sheds any light on the subject.
Col:1:3: We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
(question; if God is the father of Jesus,is Jesus divine,If Jesus has always been, he has no father, like God has no father)

Col:1:13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

question #2 Kinney look at vs 15 which describes Jesus " the firstborn of every creature" Does this say The being who later became Jesus, was God's first creation, or just what does it mean?
Was brother Paul mixed up or did he just not know what he was saying.

2:19 PM  
Blogger Paul G said...

I appreciate that we can talk freely about that most important subject.
WHO is that GOD? In who are we supposed to believe in and have faith and trust in?

Is it Jesus Christ or Jehovah or Allah or Buddha etc?

Remember that 'FATHER' is NOT a NAME.
GOD is NOT a NAME, all those are positions and descriptions of deity.
Just like I am a father, but that is not my name, also I am a son, but that is not my name and I have a Spirit in me and not even that is my name, but my name is Paul.
So it is with God!

God has only ONE NAME, so I ask you; who of all those names above is the true God?

Now, if we put our faith in the wrong God with the wrong Name, then our faith is totally useless and we will have NO inheritance and no benefit in Christ.
Remember Ps.103:2 'and forget not all His BENEFITS'!
The benefits and the blessings of the Lord are only for those who put their faith in the TRUE God.
So then I ask again, which is the true God and eternal life?

9:07 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Keith Brenton;
Yes Keith, the Lord our God does fit into our logical boxes.
He invites us to reason (Isa.1:18) "Come now, let us reason together".
All of us who preach and testify about our God ought to know everything about Him, His Name, His attributes, His nature, His ways, His will and His planes and everything else.

How could we preach a God we do not know?
Or hardly know anything about Him?
I'm sure you could tell us everything about your earthly father, how much more should you be able to tell us of your heavenly Father.

You are right in saying "that it's not at all necessary to completely understand God in order to believe in Him, love Him, and serve Him".

But most important is, that you believe in HIM and not in THEM and the 'HIM' has to be Jesus Christ of Nazareth, other ways you believe, love and serve in vain.

9:15 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Forgive me but I am not sure whether I understand you correctly.

You said, "Jesus has always been, he has no father, like God has no father".

Do you see that as in two separate persons?
One person is God and the other person his Son Jesus?
Kind regards

9:17 AM  
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:00 AM  
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

(Sorry; deleted the above for too many spelling errors!)

Paul, I disagree. I don't know everything about my late father, and until I see him in heaven, never will.

Jesus didn't know all of the Father's plans (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32), but He still revealed as much of God to us as we need to know. That's not "hardly ... anything about Him."

Personally, I think you're trying to make a unitarian concept of God into God Himself, and He just won't fit. He's more.

Nothing is still impossible with God.

In fact, when He speaks in Genesis 1, the word used for God is plural, "elohim" rather than the singular "eloi." John 1 explains why.

God is "Him." He is also "Them." He is over all, through all and in all (Epehsians 4:6).

But it's a pleasure trading thoughts with you.

11:05 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Paul I believe you left out the biggest little word in our vocabulary "If" Question; what do you see as the meaning of deity. do you see angels as deity? most people see deity as being eternal, no beginning and no end. If this applies to Jesus, how could he have a father.?

11:09 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I agree with Keith.
I know I as his creation will never know everything about my creator. God is God. I'm not. I fix him in or cannot try to figure him all out.

11:09 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I believe angels where created by God. They have a beginning but no end like our souls. Jesus always was and always will be! He has no beginning or end. Alpha and Omega!

11:11 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

I invite, Keith, Paul and Kinney, and any othere that are intrested to read my last post @

or just click on my name on last comment, and be whisked away to my post.

And give your opinion on why the scripture says what it does.

11:16 AM  
Blogger A King's Kid! said...

Trinity is in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (Spirit)
Another way to understand trinity is to look at an egg. The egg has a yolk, egg white & shell, however the egg is 3 in 1. Hope this example helps!!
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).

Faith, by its very nature, begins and ends in the realm of the unseen. It is conviction supported by evidence concerning things we do not know by experience. By faith we accept that the invisible things of God are behind the visible universe (Heb. 11:3). By faith we hope for a home in heaven, though we have never seen that paradise (2 Cor. 4:18).

Faith is also the principle by which Christians live. From the time a young person first considers the evidence for his faith, then renders the obedience of faith that makes him a Christian, then grows daily in his knowledge, wisdom, and understanding of the Lord's will, lives a holy life, becomes spiritually mature, and develops a character more and more like Jesus, until finally he, as an aged, faithful saint departs this world to enter paradise -- every step he takes on life's journey that is pleasing to God is a step taken in faith. Every step taken without faith is sin. "For we walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Cor. 5:7).

Faith is the means whereby we are saved. In fact, we cannot be saved without it (Heb. 11:2,6).

1:10 PM  
Blogger A King's Kid! said...

Statement of Faith

I believe in one Creator God, who reveals Himself as Father, Son, and Spirit. I believe in the deity of Jesus Christ.

I believe that the Bible is the inspired and relevant Word of God.

I believe that all people have sinned and need God’s grace and forgiveness which is abundantly available through Jesus’ death on the Cross. I believe that as Christians we need to offer our whole lives to God that He might cleanse our hearts from the attitude of Sin (the Biblical word for this is sanctification).

I believe God draws us to Himself but the decision to respond is ours.

I believe that an individual must repent and trust Christ to receive forgiveness and eternal life.

I believe that as Christians we need to offer our whole lives to God (the Biblical word for this is sanctification). When we surrender ourselves to God completely, His Spirit can fully mold us into Christ likeness; His perfect love is reflected in our attitudes and actions; and God empowers us to live more abundantly.

I believe that the Church is the Body of Christ, carrying on His purposes in the world.

I believe that God can bring healing to a hurting world.

I believe that Jesus Christ is coming again.

1:51 PM  
Blogger jeleasure said...

I can't speak for what some people have. However, noone should put their faith in the church. The church is human and God gave His Son to restore us to a relationship with Him.

The other day, I was talking to my pastor. I told him, I am one person from Rifqa Bary (The girl fleeing her parents for fear she may be killed for apostacy).
I communicate via email and phone calls with Jamal Jivanjee. I asked my pastor to contact Jamal, and ask, is there anything we can do to help support him as he supports Rifqa in court? My pastor said, 'There are five hundred Rifqa Bary's in the world'.

See, the leader of the church is willing to side step a chance to minister.

8:52 PM  
Blogger jeleasure said...

Hey, Kinney,
by the way, have you forgotten me?

What's up man? Email me or something.

8:54 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

No way..I haven't forgotten you bro!! I'll contact you. Sorry! I think it sad that your pastor isn't willing to help...I think God opens doors for a reason! Doesn't the Bible say, "Make the most of every opportunity!" I have learned the hard way in not putting my faith in the church. You are right, the church is people and people will definately let you down and disappoint. Thanks for your comments.

10:02 PM  
Blogger jeleasure said...

Hi Kinney,
Hey, you can find my email address in the bio section near my picture. Just click the link.

10:12 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Sorry bro...My outlook isn't working...I couldn't get your e-mail address. My e-mail address is:

10:21 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

James are you on Facebook?

10:52 PM  
Blogger jeleasure said...

Hey Kinney,
Yes, but I have not used it in so long. I should go back to it. Or, start a new account.

11:06 PM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Keith Brenton;
Thanks for your comment.
To put my question bluntly;
Do you think that Jesus is the Lord our God?
Or is He a God with another person or identity?

8:51 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

I really like that brother!
"The biggest little word in our vocabulary "IF"
Surely will I remember that!
And have you noticed that I used the biggest little word "IF" in most of my comments. :-)

By the word deity, I simply mean God (the person of God) Jesus Christ.
There are also false deities, made of wood, stone and metal.
Or basically everything which is worshiped is a deity.

But we are talking about the true deity.
We preach, teach and proclaim that Jesus Christ is the only ONE PERSON who is the true God and beside Him there is NO OTHER person, identity or spirit which is also a God.
That is a very simple statement, isn't it?

8:53 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Your comment to Laymond;
"Jesus always was and always will be! He has no beginning or end, Alpha and Omega!"

In that statement I fully agree with you.

But do you think that there is also another person or identity who was with Jesus in the beginning?

8:55 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

A King's Kid!
Thank you for your encouragement.
I agree with you wholeheartedly and I will make sure that I will not fall short of all you have said in both of your comments.

But Lisa, there is one thing;
Even the best of Theologians cannot understand the Trinity; they all say that it is a mystery.
Perhaps the Trinity is not true, and that's why it is not in the Bible.
The egg example is not good enough.
A question; do you think in your heart that there is another person or identity with Jesus who is God?
Lots of love

8:58 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I believe the Holy Spirit was with God in the beginning as well. Also God. Alpha and Omega! "Let US make man in Our likeness." I appreciate your thoughts and comments.

9:17 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

A King's Kid,
Thank you for your thoughts and comments. I especially appreciate you sharing your statement of faith. Thanks for adding to this discussion. Your comments are always welcome!!!

9:19 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Preacherman said "Jesus always was and always will be! He has no beginning or end. Alpha and Omega!"

Kinney, I believe Jesus said "I am Alpha, and Omega" which actually means "The first, and the last" does Jesus have the right to make this claim, I believe he does. Does the words "firstborn and only begotten" mean anything to you."First and only", could be understood as "first and last" people have said that John 1 said Jesus was eternal,I beg to differ, the first mention of God's Son Jesus Christ, he is referred to as the "Light" John was the forerunner of that light, not the word, the word was the way by which Jesus furnished that light.
We know that "Light" is not eternal, because God said (by the word) let there be light, and there was light.
Read John 1 with an open mind, no preconceived opinions

11:59 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

First I appreciate every comment about the most important subject;
In which God do we believe and have faith in?

I was not arguing for the sake of arguing but the sake that I might win everyone for Jesus and only for Jesus Christ exclusive any other person, identity or spirit.

It is interesting that so far no one could say that they believe in Jesus to be the only God.

Kinney, you said; "I believe the Holy Spirit was with God in the beginning as well. Also God Alpha and Omega!"

This is what I think you are saying.
The third person the Holy Spirit was with the first person 'God' (whoever that might be?) in the beginning AS WELL, (ALSO).
I cannot read and understand that any other way, but that to be two identities excluding the third identity Jesus.

NO Kinney! This is NOT TRUE!
The Holy Spirit is the identity of JESUS, just as the Scripture said (Col.3:17) "Now the Spirit is the Lord!"
Jesus is the Lord and He is the Holy Spirit who is God (John 4:24) in the beginning He created all things, for Him, by Him and through Him (John 1:1).
He (Jesus) in the beginning the Holy Spirit hovered over the waters (Gen. 1:2) and created all things. His Name was not given then and nobody new His Name and neither did He have a body (flesh), since God is Spirit (John 4:24).
But the Spirit who is God prepared for Himself a body (flesh), just as it said in (Luke 1:35) The Holy Spirit shall come upon you and the Holy child shall be CALLED the Son of God (Emanuel GOD with us).
Here you can see that the Holy Spirit clothed Himself in flesh or made a body for the Spirit to dwell, (veiled the incarnate deity) and received a Name, a Name which is above every other Name and that at that Name of JESUS, every knee ought to bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of the Father. That is the Glory of Jesus who IS the Father of His own body (flesh) and the creator of all things.

2:15 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Additional comment;
There are only two groups of people who believe in God or three, if you think the third to be relevant!

(g 1)There are those who believe in a god by whatever name they call him.
They are called, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, Jews and Unitarians etc.

(g 2) There are those who believe ONLY in the Lord Jesus Christ that He is the only ONE true God and beside Him there is no other person, identity or spirit who is also a God.
They are called, disciple of Jesus and Christians.

(g 3)There are those who believe that Jesus is God AND Jehovah is also God AND some others.
Those are called, Trinitarians, and Hare Krishna's, Universalist's (Catholic's and sometimes Christians.

Whether we like it or not;
Each one of us BELONGS to only one of those three groups.
It is therefore of great importance that we judge ourselves rightly.
To which group do I belong to??

IF I belong to (g 1), then I believe and put my faith into a false god who cannot save himself and neither can I be saved by him.

IF I belong to (g 2), then I belong to the true God and eternal life, since there is no other NAME given whereby I must be saved JESUS CHRIST!

IF I belong to (g 3), then I have transgressed the first commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ and I am an abomination in His sight!

Since the true God (g 2) has condemned all those who belong and believe in (g 1) and most certainly He will SPEW (g 3) out of His mouth!

Let him who has ears hear what the Spirit says to each one of us and to the Churches.

Remember the five foolish virgins, they just like the five wise virgins waited for the Bridegroom (Jesus).
IF you are a virgin, then do not have another person or lover beside your husband or you will be called a harlot.
Paul said, I espouse you to ONE husband and no to three!
And the Bridegroom is the Lord Jesus Christ the lover of our souls!
Lots of love

2:28 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Paul G. I give I holler out "uncle" I call out "Calf rope" In other words I give up.
If you can read John 17 and still believe as you do, you are not searching for God, You are creating your own.
When you say Jesus is the only true God, you are directly denying the very words of this "god" you worship, you accuse him of lying, when he said.
Jn:17:3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
It could not be said in any other way which could be understood better.
Was Jesus talking to himself in Jn 17. or any other time when he prayed to his God ? Like I said you don't want to know the truth, so I say "calf rope" I give , shake the dust off. But I tried.
As Jesus said , there are those with eyes who will not see, and ears that will not hear. May God bless.

10:47 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Laymond; I admire and appreciate your tenacity and fervor.
Perhaps you sense the importance of that question, IN WHOM do we have faith?
Without answering that question correctly, our faith is useless and profits us NOTHING.
First a short comment on your previous comment;

Alpha is the first, just like any natural Father is before his Son, the Father is the first (Alpha).
But Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, meaning the Father and the Son in the ONE person of Jesus Christ. The Spirit clothed in flesh, or became a man Jesus Christ our Lord.
Also remember that God is pure light and in Him there is no darkness.
That light is eternal and it came into this world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. (John 3:19)

Now to the question about John 17;
I hastily thought that you had referred to 1 John 5:20, sorry about that, my mistake.

Laymond; perhaps the passage of John 17 is the most difficult passage for anyone to explain.
Why did Jesus pray?
To whom did Jesus pray?
All of us know that it is impossible for God to pray and I claim that Jesus is the only true God. (1 John 5:20)

How about we make a deal!
IF I can explain John 17 intelligently, scripturally and spiritually sound, without error.

Would you then publicly repent and renounce your false god Jehovah and turn to Jesus Christ wholeheartedly and without restraint and to preach, teach and proclaim only Him.
To love the Lord Jesus with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might and forsake all other gods till death and resurrection and for ever more??
Lots of love

6:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1 Jn :5:5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 Jn :5:10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

No Paul , you will need to pick another book beside that of 1-John to prove your statement. Pretty soon you will run out.

Will I make a deal, NO! seems I have heard that deal before and the one to which it was made turned it down.
Mt: 4:10: Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Paul, did Satan know he was dealing with “the one true God here” or was he so foolish as to think it was the Son of God with which he was dealing.
If we recall back in the book of Job, Satan seemed to know who God was.

OK Paul I rebuke your offer to turn my back on God the Father, the creator of all things.
Let me put a question to you. When, and how was Jesus recognized as the son of God.

8:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kinney, you had better get in on this, you are missing your chance.
Kinney may I suggest you start a discussion on the bible in general. like Jay Guinn did, it probably would be very informative.

8:55 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

I don't know why but the comments marked me down as anonymous, on my last two comments, just wanted you to know I claim responsibility for both. Laymond

11:28 AM  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Laymond @ 12:10pm

Are you saying this means Jesus is not God?

Mk: 10:18:
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus, as man, says only God is good.
Jesus then calls Himself good.
Identifying Himself as God.

John 10:11
I am the “good” shepherd:
the “good” shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:14
I am the “good” shepherd, and know my sheep,
and am known of mine.

Jesus says,
“God is good.” “Jesus is the good shepherd.”

God is good = Jesus is good = Jesus is God.


Are you saying this means God is only “The Father.”
And NOT the Son.

Mk: 12:29:
And Jesus answered him,
The first of all the commandments is,
Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

This is from the OT.

Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

The LORD = is Jehovah.
John prepared the way for,
the LORD, Jehovah, Isa 40:3,
and Jesus showed up. Mat. 3:3

God = elohim, = the plural word for God = eloi.

one = echad = a plural one.

The Theological Wordbook of The Old Tstament.

Echad= Stresses unity
while recognising diversity within that oneness.

Such as Adam and Eve being two separate people
But, “one” (echad) flesh.

Gen 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave
his father and his mother,
and shall cleave unto his wife:
and they shall be “one” (echad) flesh.

one = echad = Unity, Diversity, within oneness.

Exodus 24:3
And Moses came and told the people
all the words of the LORD,
and all the judgments: and all the people
answered with “one” (echad) voice...

Many people with “one” (echad) voice.

one = echad = Unity, Diversity, within oneness.

So yes, there is “one” (echad) God.

There is “unity” and “diversity” within “echad” God.

God’s math.

one + one + one = one

one shell + one white + one yolk = one egg

one body + one soul + one spirit = one human

one Father + one Son + one Holy Spirit = One God.

Remove any “one.” and

The “egg” is not complete.
The “human” is not complete.
And “God” is not complete.

Jesus, Son of God and Son of man

Jesus, both God and man.

As “man” Jesus said,” The Father is greater than I.”

As “God” Jesus said, I and the Father are “ONE.”

Jesus, God of all, Creator of all.

12:34 PM  
Blogger jeleasure said...

Hey Laymond and Paul,
I request you send an acknowledgement.

You may not like this. But, I'm going to tell the two of you something you already know.

Jesus said, if you've seen me, you've seen The Father. I'm not saying Jesus is The Father. Now you are confused.

Keep this in mind; when God took Moses and hid him in the cleft of the rock, He passed bye. God said, you will see my backside.

'Backside' does not make a statement of theological importance unless, we look at the text in the origional language.

In Hebrew, 'Backside' is a Hebrew word that is "like a twin, but smaller".

Do you understand that? "Like a twin, but smaller"?

Jesus said, when you've seen me, you have seen the Father. Yet, Jesus the flesh is what we see with our eyes. God the Father is what we see in action, through the person of Jesus. Jesus is the lamb that takes away the sin of the world. He is God 'incarnate'.

Incarnate means, "an imbodiment of a spirit".

Have you ever peeled the layers of an onion? If you take away the top several layers of an onion to its core, you still have an onion.

To look on the face of God is death to man, that is why God would not allow Moses to see Him. But, God permitted Moses to see His "Backside". He saw the inner core of the onion, so to speak.

Jesus is the Flesh who is known by the Angels as Immanuel to the humans. But, the Angel also said, "His name shall be called Jesus"..

Layers of God is what we see in Jesus the vessel, the lamb of God, God incarnate (the twin, but smaller). Literally, when man looked at Jesus, the man saw the character and nature of God, not with the eyes. The definition of "incarnate" is embodiment of a spirit.

I hope you believe this. It is not widely taught. That is because, most people have not studied the Bible for every possible aspect of comprehending every thing there is to learn. I have not. I do not know anyone who has.

The Bible says, "as iron sharpens iron, man sharpens man". If I don't know something, I hope someone can point me in the right direction and I will be as the Bereans. I will look it up to see if it is true.

Remember to acknowledge me on this board. I have been coming here for two years, and the only person who will acknowledge me, is Kinney.

3:44 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I agree with James. I also believe there are thing we will never can understand about God until we get to heaven. I know I can't fit him in my mind nor do I want to try. We often try to fit God in a box, limiting Him to our vision and standards of who he is. We just can't fathom God. "Our thought are not his thoughts, our ways his ways." He is God. I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this discussion. It has been interesting! Everyone's thoughts and opinions are always open and appreciated here! Thanks..Now on to part 4!!

5:34 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

James said "Layers of God is what we see in Jesus the vessel, the lamb of God, God incarnate (the twin, but smaller)."
James maybe it could be said "Jesus is the image of God" as it is said in the bible (A copy) not a physical copy, a spiritual copy, according to the bible God has no physical features. To say Jesus is God, would be like looking, at a picture of James, and saying that is James, while knowing full well it is just an image of the real James, a copy.

6:04 PM  
Blogger jeleasure said...

Hi Laymond and Preacher Man!

Thanks for getting back to me. I enjoy sharpening the spiritual senses.

Laymond, yes, I see your point.
Not a physical copy but a spiritual copy.

What man was able to see of Jesus is physical. The Spirit of Jesus is the incarnate God. That is the "Backside" shown to Moses, not the physical person.

Literally, Jesus was shown to Moses. Only, not a physical Jesus. Why did God show His "backside", his twin but smaller or His Son? That is something I have speculated about.

7:35 PM  
Blogger Adam Pastor said...

Greetings preacherman

On the subject of the Trinity,
I recommend this video:
The Human Jesus

Take a couple of hours to watch it; and prayerfully it will aid you in your quest for truth.

Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor

6:58 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Before I comment, I want you to know that I love like a brother loves a brother and that I am not against you in any form or way.
I am jealous with a godly jealousy for every mighty man of God especially in the caliber like you Laymond that you would turn to Jesus and abandon that false god Jehovah, because he will profit you nothing.

You said;
"OK Paul I rebuke your offer to turn my back on God the Father, the creator of all things.
Let me put a question to you. When and how was Jesus recognized as the Son of God?"

Laymond; you have already turned your back on God the Father, just like Jesus said, "If you do not know that I am HE, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24 + Isa. 43:10)
Now that 'HE' that is the true God and eternal life, since Jesus is the Creator of all things (John 1:1).
Answer to your question;
Jesus was recognized as the Son of God at His birth in (Luke 1:35) "So the holy one to be born will be CALLED the Son of God."

Laymond; it is NOT like most people think, that this unknowable God by the name of Jehovah had a Son.
Certainly NOT!
God does not need a Son!
God is the Son!
Since God is Spirit and was borne through the Virgin Mary in flesh, in that sense Jesus is called the Son of God.

Please read A. Amos Love's Comment.
I fully agree with him in every regard and I rejoice in the Lord my God Jesus Christ that He has given that kind of wisdom and understanding to man.

7:56 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

I am not sure whether I follow your train of thought.
Perhaps I would need more information to come to a conclusion on that.

But Jesus to be the backside or the behind of God; Hmmm, I am not sure about that!
And like a twin; do you mean a Siamese twin, one bigger the other smaller?

Well jeleasure, to me Jesus is the Father (John 14:7) "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on you do know him and have seen him."

8:00 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

It is not that we are limiting God to our vision, but rather that God has removed our limitation so that we can see Him clearly.

Col. 2:2-4 "My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of COMPETE UNDERSTANDING, in order that they may know the mystery of God namely Christ in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine sounding arguments."
Lots of love

8:04 AM  
Blogger jeleasure said...

Paul G.
I don't mean "Saimese" twin. I am only telling what the definition is for "Back side".

I can see you are looking at the word, "Back side" and taking it very literally. Don't do that. I'm not calling Jesus the But, of God.

What I am telling you is this,

Man can not look on God and live. So, Jesus, is as the inner core of the onion. He is the embodiement of God. That portion of God that man is capable of viewing with out parishing. Only, Jesus the person is a vessel for God to embody. That is the definition of "incarnate".

I don't know how else to tell you. But, you did not seem to understand it the first time. If you don't get it this time, it may be that I am doing a very poor job in explaining it. But, I have given you some definitions. And, I have given you the best analogy for the word "Backside". Smaller but like a twin is the definition. An onion can be the same onion, even if you peel away the top several layers, it does not make it a different onion.

I have nothing more to add to that. You will have to work with what I've given you if you are to understand what I am telling you. Sorry. The only other thing I can think of, is "The things of the Spirit are spiritually discerned". Try to understand from that perspective. Cause, what you replied to my comment with looks very much like you are understanding from a human, physical perspective.

10:59 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Paul, as you say I am not accusing, just wondering if you may not have missed the point of the scripture, you nearly quoted.

KJV: That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
(and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.)
Can you tell us what the "mystery of God" was? and by whom it was revealed, and demonstrated?
might I suggest you read the short book of Ephesians, which mentions the mystery six times.

11:26 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

I am glad to hear that you don't think that Jesus is the 'but' of God. :-)
You had me a little worried there for a moment.
I fully agree with you in that statement.

"Man can not look on God and live. So, Jesus, is as the inner core of the onion. He is the embodiment of God. That portion of God that man is capable of viewing with out perishing. Only Jesus the person is a vessel for God to embody. That is the definition of "incarnate".
And I give you a big AMEN.

8:47 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes, you have quoted the (KJV) and I quoted the (NIV).
I like both translations, but at the end it is as jeleasure quoted, "The things of the Spirit are spiritually discerned."

(Colossians) is the mystery of Jesus Christ revealed.
(Ephesians) is the mystery of the gospel revealed.
(Matthew 13:11 and Mark, Luke and John) is the mystery of the Kingdom of God revealed.

8:49 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Adam Pastor;
Thanks for the video clip, the Human Jesus.
Those Unitarians are right about the Trinity, but are ignorant concerning the knowledge of God.

They are men theorizing about God without ever have encountered the living God personally.
Rightly did Jesus say, I praise thee O Father that thou hast HIDDEN these things from the wise and the intelligent and gave it to babes!

You know Adam, if you want to know the truth, you must personally come to the Lord Jesus Christ just as a child, or you will never know the living God Jesus Christ and worst of all you will die in your sins.

8:52 AM  
Blogger Ted M. Gossard said...

We have faith in God grounded in a faith commitment through Christ. And to goes from there. All commitments are grounded in this one faith commitment. So that we're dependent on God, but interdependent through what God has provided: his revelation in Scripture, the church, etc.

10:46 PM  
Blogger jeleasure said...

here I go sticking my nose in.

To say "you must come to Jesus Christ as a child" is to say, come by blind faith or not much knowledge at all. There is nothing wrong with that, by the way.

There are plenty of people who gathered enough information before making a confession of faith, they were literally well educated scholars, ready to preach the Gospel before having made a PUBLIC confession for Christ.

Josh McDowell and C.S. Lewis are two off the top of my head.

What you are saying to Adam, is he does not need to be a perfect human or a Bible Scholar.

11:03 PM  
Blogger Paul G said...

I'm glad that you stick your nose in and write comments.
How else can we know what other believers think and believe, and how else can we expand the borders of our understanding and knowledge of our wonderful Lord and God Jesus Christ, unless everybody sticks their noses in as well.

I don't think that faith is 'BLIND'! Perhaps that might be a slip of your tongue.
Since by faith we understand, by faith we see Jesus, by faith we believe, by faith we recognize the voice of Jesus and whatsoever is not by faith is sin.

When the little children see and hear Jesus, they come quickly to Him without hesitation, because the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

When the scholars, the theologians, the pastors, the wise, the debaters of this age see and hear Jesus, they turn to the Scripture to study and dissect them in details and think that in them (the Scripture) they have eternal life, but they fail to see that all Scripture from Genesis to Revelation speaks of Jesus, but they are unwilling to come to Jesus, so that they would have eternal life.
Since eternal life is NOT in a book (not even in the Bible), but only in one person Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

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