Differing Ideologies
I have found that many believers think it is okay to tell other Christians what to read, not read, and how to think. Why? Why do some believers try to force their ideologies on others? Some Christians even like to label other Christians as heretics, etc. Why?Not believing the exact same way they do? What makes some believers think all Christians in order to be Christians must think and agree on every issue that they do? Can we as believers have differing beliefs? Isn't faith personal? Did Jesus force people to think they way he did on everything? Did Jesus leave room for interpretation? In the Apostles letters do we see differing opinions and ideologies? Can we have differing beliefs and still have unity?
What do you think?
Share your thoughts?
posted by preacherman @ 9:42:00 AM
85 Comments:
I think when we start binding implication and inference as the official interpretation, that is where we have problems. But there is nevertheless a body of teaching in Scripture that is clear and non-negotiable. Moral imperatives are very clear. If we could unite on the "seven ones" of Ephesians 4:4-6that's a good start.
Paul said that we should all be of one mind, but also that we can hold to differring opinions, presumably on secondary doctrines that are not essential to the Gospel. Problems arise when we make those secondary doctrines an essential part of the Gospel. That's when congregations split, families split, and friends develop grudges.
On the other hand, I agree with Wade that there are non-negotiable absolutes (such as Jesus Christ being the ONLY way to God), that this fallen world would have us compromise on. There's a balance.
Wade,
Thanks for your thoughts. It is helpful especailly the passage you suggest.
Greg,
Thank you for your thoughts as well. I think there are many believers that confuse the non-essentials as essentials. That is where we have problems. I agree that when secondary doctirne cause congregations to split, families to split and friend to hold grudges. Sad. I do think we can get alone on non-essentials. Maybe mind some kind of agree ment on the eseentials. Faith, Hope, Love. Again thanks for your comments!
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It's funny, because we can't make up our minds as humans.
Ultimately, I think most people like knowing where the line is so they know if they are crossing it or not. As a result, we feel compelled to draw a clear line in black and white. We like our rules. I wonder if that influenced Israel to petition God for a King instead of judges?
Then again, we like to break rules once we have them. Take Adam and Eve eating the fruit from the tree God specifically told them not to eat from as an example.
I don't think it is an issue that is related exclusively to Christianity or theology. I think it's a larger question related to human behavior and psychology.
Ben, I agree. Excellent thoughts on this issue!
Why do some believers try to force their ideologies on others?
Maybe religious pride?
I've already commented, but it occurred to me that what one calls an "ideology", another calls sin, and the NT exhorts us to watch out for one another and attempt, in meekness and love, to lead the backslidden back to the light. Both sides need to balance their discernment with enough grace to consider whether one (or both) of them could be wrong.
Bob,
I agree with your comment as well..I think religous pride does play a role.
Greg,
Balance is good.
You comment anytime here brother!
There are very few things that are nonnegotiable such as the gospel of salvation through Christ.
Most of what we get hung up on is what Jesus called "the traditions of the Elders"
Greg; If two people are of one mind, then they certainly are of the same opinion!
As a believer in Jesus Christ I do not have the right to my own opinion, but I must adjust to the opinion of my Lord Jesus Christ.
Who makes the primary non-negotiable doctrines?
And who decides what a secondary negotiable doctrine is?
Is it the Catholic Church, the Jehovah Witness, the Baptist or the Pentecostal Church?
You said; "non-negotiable absolutes (such as Jesus Christ being the ONLY way to God.)"
Greg; that is a 'STATEMENT'!
Unless you explain that statement in a doctrine, it is open for everyone's private interpretation, whatever suits them or their Churches doctrines.
For this reason we have so many different denominations.
The Jehovah Witnesses interpret that as going through Jesus Christ to their god Jehovah.
The Catholics as going trough Jesus Christ to the other two person gods and the Baptist and Pentecostals etc. think just like them.
They use the Lord Jesus as a door- matt to go to their own god.
That to me is not unity, or being of one mind.
Greg, I'll ask you;
To WHICH God, and what is His Name? Is Jesus the ONLY way to God??
This is not a trick question!
Every man of God ought to be able to answer that question accurately and simply.
Paul
Rick Morgan;
What are the traditions of the Elders?
Paul
Paul G, I read your comments to me, and I felt it appropriate to clarify a few things.
There are many, many statements in the Bible that, like it or not, are open to interpretation. For many of them, there no doubt IS a true interpretation, but sincere, seeking born-again Christians disagree on what that is. One case in point is the question of whether to observe the Sabbath.
When the Apostle Paul said that we should all be of one mind (which does mean agreement), he surely did not mean "in every little thing", right? You might prefer pistachio ice cream, for example, while I prefer chocolate. So exactly WHAT are we to be in agreement on? Whether or not we can eat meat? Whether or not we should be married? Whether or not there is a Millennial Reign? See my point? That boundary on what we should agree on is unclear, and is itself something that people cannot agree on.
So you asked who decides what's primary and what's secondary? I don't think of it that way myself, and I'm guessing we're on the same page on that count. I subscribe to the two commandments that Jesus gave us (restated from the OT): love God above all else, and love your neighbor as yourself. If all Christians were to start living according to those "doctrines", I don't think there would be any more splits or denominations.
I think you're asking me to clarify what Jesus meant when He said that He is the only way and that no one comes to the Father, except by Him. I don't know how various denominations interpret it, but from what I understand, Jesus is the only One who could pay for our sins, all other religions are false, and there is nothing that we can do to reach God, except repent of our sins and be born again, by accepting Jesus as out personal Lord and Savior. Yes, there is a lot of doctrine in all that, but most of it is plainly stated in the NT, particularly Paul's letters.
The name of my God, the ONLY true God, Creator and Father of all, is Jesus. At different times, He has gone by "I AM", YHWH, or JEHOVAH. Isaiah 9:6 lists quite a few more names than that, even, but for us now, after Jesus' life on earth, His name is Jesus. Yet, I am not offended if someone just calls Him God, or Yahweh, or even Jehovah, as long as they're not doing it to diminish the fact that Jesus is God.
I hope that clears things up. If you would like to have further discussion in this line, please e-mail me directly, through my Blogger profile.
Thanks Greg, I appreciate your explanation, especially the answer to my question.
You said; "The name of my God, the ONLY true God, Creator and Father of all is Jesus."
Amen brother and I am really glad that you have said it like that. You may be surprised but not many Christians can say it like that, because many believe that the Father or even God is another person or identity than the Lord Jesus.
Paul
Preacherman;
You have asked in your post, "Can we as believers have differing beliefs?"
Concerning 'God', absolutely NOT!
Just think of a family;
One son says that our father is Tom, another son says, oh no our father is not Tom it is Dick, the third son says, it is neither of them but only Harry, and last, the fourth son says, but brothers we should have a balance in that, I think that all three of them are our father. If we all believe that, then there will be no division among us and we will be a happy family. (The family of God)
Unfortunately that is a picture of most Churches today.
Don't you think that it is the mother’s responsibility to tell her sons who their father is?
And how is it that there are three male persons in one house who claim to be the father of the mothers children?
Is that the family of God?
Regards
Paul
Paul, I've read some of your blog, and you remind me a lot of my father-in-law. For as long as I've known him, he's been so dogmatic about every little point of doctrine, that he is unable to have fellowship with ANYBODY. He will always find something to disagree with them on, and then makes a huge issue out of it, until it creates a split between him and that person. He certainly means well and is a true child of God, but he does not know how to pick his fights.
Within mainstream Christianity, I don't see the disagreements being about WHO God is, but rather differences about His nature, most of which are inconsequential to the Gospel. To borrow from your analogy, I think the children argue less about what their dad's name is, but more about what his favorite color is or whether he's right-handed or left-handed.
Perhaps you'll think me naive, but I don't think we'll truly understand God's true nature until we go to be with Him. Until then, it is enough for me to know that He is Creator and Savior, that my heart is His throne, and that He is true love, personified. He is perfect and Holy, the ideal that is my life's highest goal, and I trust in His transforming and perfecting power to take me to that place.
I try not to think about the apparent paradox that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aspects of Him imply, just as I don't wrack my brain that, while He was on earth, He was fully man and fully God, at the same time. The Bible is not definitive on the nature of God, and I do not suppose to know more than what is contained in its pages.
POEM TO PONDER
I was shocked, confused, bewildered
As I entered Heaven's door,
Not by the beauty of it all,
Nor the lights or its decor.
But it was the folks in Heaven
Who made me sputter and gasp--
The thieves, the liars, the sinners,
The alcoholics and the trash.
There stood the kid from seventh grade
Who swiped my lunch money twice.
Next to him was my old neighbor
Who never said anything nice.
Herb, who I always thought
Was rotting away in hell,
Was sitting pretty on cloud nine,
Looking incredibly well.
I nudged Jesus, 'What's the deal?
I would love to hear Your take.
How'd all these sinners get up here?
God must've made a mistake.
'And why is everyone so quiet,
So somber - give me a clue.'
'Hush, child,' He said, 'they're all in shock.
No one thought they'd be seeing you.'
JUDGE NOT!!
Remember...Just going to church doesn't make you a
Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you a car.
Every saint has a PAST...
Every sinner has a FUTURE!
Thanks again for all your comments. Many different ideas and understandings make a blog interesting. If we always agree, that makes a blog boring.
Greg; it takes two for a disagreement and it matters not who initiated the topic.
If a person does not know his father, do you think that he is qualified to talk about the nature of his father whom he does not know?
I think the same is with God.
You said; "To borrow from your analogy, I think the children argue less about what their dad's name is, but more about what his favorite color is or whether he's right-handed or left-handed."
Perhaps the five foolish virgins should have argued more about their bridegrooms name and who he is than about the color of his robe. (Mat.25)
Jesus clearly said, "I tell you the truth, I don't know you."
Greg, do you think that Jesus did not know about them?
I think that those foolish virgins waited and believed in another person or identity than Jesus and therefore never had any fellowship with the true bridegroom and never came to know Him.
Just as Jesus said; 'If you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins.' (John 8:24)
I hope that not one of us will ever hear the Lord Jesus saying, 'depart I never knew you.'
Lots of love
Paul
Laymond;
You surely are confused and bewildered.
Your POEM is a scene in hell and not in heaven.
The Lord Jesus said that 'the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolatresses and ALL LIARS including all your characters in your POEM, their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.' (Rev. 21:8) + (Rev. 22:15) and look in verse 16 'I Jesus sent Paul G. to give you this testimony for the churches.' :-)
Also remember that a Jehovah Witness standing in a Christian Church does not make him a Christian, or a rat living in a cookie-jar does not make it a cookie.
Yes Laymond every sinner has a FUTURE! But where does his future end?
There are only two places, heaven or hell! And NO there is no purgatory, a middle ground.
Lots of love
Paul
Paul G, are you really an angel ?
sent by Jesus?
Let's stay civil, shall we? :)
In the poem that Laymond shared, those sounded like people that the speaker had not seen in a while. I took it as saying that all those people eventually got saved, Herb possibly on his deathbed, and that their past sins were wiped away. The Bible says that NO sinners, of ANY kind, shall inherit the Kingdom of God. The Bible always makes a strong distinction between sinners and the saved; one is never the other. Unfortunately, modern society (and even most churches) now preach that there can be no victory over sin, and that "I'm OK, you're OK" or that God simply overlooks all our sins (whether we've repented or not). We NEED to preach (and practice) righteousness, but in humility and in love.
I agree Greg...Let's stay civil!
Laymond;
Am I an angel? I'm not sure about that. ;-)
But on the other hand, aren't all angels ministering spirits unto salvation to everyone who believes?
"Sent by Jesus?"
Yes, certainly!
(Acts 1:8) Jesus said, 'and you Paul G. will be my witness in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.'
Note; a witness to Jesus and not to Jehovah or to a Trinity of persons!
Paul
Greg;
I'm really glad that you make a clear distinction between sinners and the saved.
Too many people think that a nice person is automatically saved because they are nice.
You said;
"We need to preach (and practice) righteousness, but in humility and love."
What do you think of John the Baptist? Was he preaching in humility and love when he said to the church people; "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." (Mat. 3:7-8)
Jesus called the church leaders 'a den of vipers' and many other things.
Hmmm! It doesn't sound very humble or loving.
Kind regards
Paul
Paul, let me help you out a little, you are not an angel, as the bible tells us Jesus was made a little lower than the angels (a human) unless you are not human, you are not an angel, just my opinion but to me you don't even act angelic. I don't know if you are married or not, but if you are ask your wife about this angel thing. Well I almost forgot if you are married, that right there disqualifies you as an angel, angels do not marry, as said in the bible.
Paul are you calling me a den of vipers? that can't be so, at most I could only be "one viper" who is a little lower than the angels, you see I am a human, I even admit to making human mistakes. I even admit that you make mistakes also.
Paul, I get the feeling that you thrive on debate. But, as the Bible proves, different people need different approaches, and debating (esp. HOW one presents one's arguments) can make or break a witnessing opportunity. I'm fine with debates, as long as they're respectful. You tend to come on a little strong, which is all too common on the 'net.
Now, regarding John the Baptist, he knew his audience (as we should, too). Sure enough, there were sincere seekers of God who came to him, and he welcomed them, preached the coming of the Kingdom in love, and even baptized them. However, when the Pharisees and Saducees came, he recognized them and knew that they came only to couse trouble. That's probably why he was harsh to them. Jesus did the same, having the advantage of being God and KNOWING men's hearts and minds.
We, on the other hand, often do not have those advantages, especially when holding discussions online. I like what your namesake said in Eph 4:29-32: "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
There is a balance we must reach, if we are to preach the truth in humility and love. Laymond and I are not here to bash heads with you or lead people astray; we are here to fellowship with other born-again disciples of Christ and witness to the unsaved, who may come to this, or any other Christian blog that we frequent, seeking the truth.
Preacherman;
You said in your post;
"Why do some believers try to force their ideologies on others?"
Those of us who are in Christ do not have the right to have our own ideologies; we must adjust to the Lords ideology.
I think that is the command of the Lord Jesus to go out into the whole world and preach the good news of the gospel on the highways and the byways, in season and out of season, convenient or not convenient.
To force our ideology on those who are perishing is never well received.
The sad part is that most of the people don't like to hear it and call us Bible bashers and religious freaks etc. because they prefer their own ideology and they make every effort to hinder or stop us to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
Kind regards
Paul
I beg to differ...I think we can have our own ideologies. Yes, on the essential matters we need to have the mind of Christ but I can have my own thoughts and opinions when it comes to social matters, political views, and other non-essentials. God has given each one of us personalities, opinions, choice. God has given us a gift of the mind, thought, and choice. God doesn't force me to think the same way as other believers and I don't think we have to agree on all issues in order to be believers. We don't have a right to force our own individual ideologies on other because we think everyone has to think the same way we do. We can have differing opinons. Yes on the essentials that everyone came to God through Jesus Christ alone is a essential ideologies as well as faith, hope, love. The greatest of these is love. I think many times believers confuse non-essentials with essentials. We focus on the wrong things...We need to find agreement and unity on essential doctrines, Jesus being the only way to salvation, hope that we have in God through Christ, love. Loving God and our neighbor as ourself.
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Preacherman;
We who are in Christ are born again, a brand new man and old things have past away and behold all things are new.
Therefore the new man has all the characteristics and ideologies, essentials, doctrines, views, opinions and whatever else of his heavenly Father Jesus Christ.
In Christ we do not have the right to do what we like to do, not even to preach, to think, to speak, and to look and neither do we have the right to remain silent.
Because Jesus Christ is the head or the Lord over us and we must be governed and controlled by the Spirit of the Lord.
It is He who has bought us with the price of His blood and we belong to Him and not to ourselves.
We supposed to be ambassadors for Christ.
Any ambassador does not represent his views or his ideas but his countries.
It is because of those things that most well meaning Christians are perishing and end up in all sorts of troubles just like the rest of the world.
Sadly, they never come into the life of God and His abundant life.
They go from bad to worse and blaming the devil for all their sufferings and destruction.
It is Jesus who is the pearl of great price and anyone who has the pearl counts everything else but rubbish.
Paul
@Paul G - I'm interested in your thoughts on this:
"we must be governed and controlled by the Spirit of the Lord"
What does it mean to be "controlled" by the Spirit of the Lord? What scriptures substantiate being "controlled" that way? And please share any of your experiences of being "controlled"by the Spirit.
Kansas Bob;
Before a man can be governed and controlled by the Spirit he must be born of the Holy Spirit.
Any attempt to try and reproduce the work of the Spirit in our lives without being born again is a vain attempt and that fruit will not last, because it is the fruit of our labor and not of the Spirit.
In (John 14:23) Jesus said, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to Him, and make Our abode with him."
Basically what Jesus is saying is that after His resurrection He will come into us and make His dwelling place in us, just like the Spirit made His abode in Jesus, so He will be in us.
(Gal. 4:6) God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts.
All that is only for those who have received the Holy Spirit and if a man has not received the Spirit, he does not belong to Jesus (Rom. 8:9) and he is dead in his sins and trespasses.
Some teach that you must make Jesus Lord in your life in order that Jesus can govern and control you. But that is not true! No one can make Jesus Lord in their lives and every attempt to do so is a waste of time since Jesus is Lord at His birth, (by 'Lord' I mean the Lord God Almighty the ruler of everything).
If Jesus is dwelling in you then He certainly will lead you, teach you, correct you, love you, discipline and bless you so that you will be conformed into His image.
All that will be the work of the Holy Spirit in you, because it is called "the fruit of the Spirit", it is that which He has produced in you and you will be the recipient of all the good things of the Lord.
If a man is possessed by an evil spirit, he is controlled by that spirit and must obey him, the same is with the Spirit of God.
Paul
@Paul G - I am wondering if you have a real understanding of how the Holy Spirit interacts with us. This statement..
"If a man is possessed by an evil spirit, he is controlled by that spirit and must obey him, the same is with the Spirit of God."
..leads me to believe that you do not.
The Holy Spirit's interaction with man is not one of control but one of leadership. The scriptures plainly teach that the Holy Spirit "leads" not controls. You accurately point out that demons control people but you seem to not understand the difference between the ways of demons and of the Holy Spirit.
If you believe this to be in error please show me in scripture where it teach that the Holy Spirit "controls" people.
You have also said:
"Those of us who are in Christ do not have the right to have our own ideologies; we must adjust to the Lords ideology."
Given your thinking that the Holy Spirit wants to control us this statement makes sense. In your thinking it seems that God is interested in an army of robots that do not have to discern His will but simply are yanked around by a divine puppeteer who wants to control them like a demon would.
Again Paul.. please provide the scriptures that point out the places where the Holy Spirit "controls" believers instead of teaching and leading them.
Kansas Bob;
I think we have a misunderstanding of the word control and lead.
Basically both words mean the same.
If you are a leader of a group, then you must be in control of that group.
A leader cannot lead unless he is in control.
(Phil.2:13) "For it is God who works in you to WILL and to ACT according to His good purpose."
If the Spirit of God has made His residence in you, then He will be in leadership and works in you to do the right things which is pleasing to Him.
He has made you willing to do so; He has taken out your hard and unwilling heart and gave you a new heart of flesh. (Eze. 36:26)
Apart from Jesus you can do nothing! (John 15:5)
It always amazes me that there are Christians who say to Jesus that they have a free will and that they can do whatever they want to and He cannot override their will.
Just think of a loving father who has taken his six year old son to the beach, having a great and wonderful time he refuses to go home at dusk, saying I have a free will and I will not go home.
What do you think his father would do?
Paul
@Paul G - Can I understand from your last comment that you no longer see the Holy Spirit controlling people like a demon controls?
From your last comment it seems that you do not see a difference in control and leadership. Again it would be helpful if you could point out in scripture where it teaches that the Holy Spirit control people.
It would also be helpful if you can give an example of how the Holy Spirit has controlled you in some fashion.
Bob, and Paul, I hear each of you accusing the other of not being indwelled by the true spirit.
(and I believe you are both right) Claiming the indwelling, and leading or controlling, by the spirit of God by Christian believing individuals, leads people to be unchristian in their actions. Do either of you believe the Holy Spirit/Jehovah God intended for this to happen? I know you are mild mannered accusers, but accusers none the less. And if all Christians, believers in Christ, are indwelled with the same spirit from God, as leader, don't you think they would believe the same thing, since the bible tells us God is an unchanging God? I ask both of you where it is stated within the pages of scripture that the everyday Christian, followers of Jesus Christ and his 12 named Apostles (who were, by the way, indwelled by the Spirit) will ever receive the indwelling as they did. Where is it said we will be guided by that indwelling spirit, I can show you however, where we will be led by reading scripture and an indwelling good conscience placed there by God. I can show you where Jesus promised a comforter for the Apostles he was leaving behind, someone to remind them of the things he taught while he was here. But I can't however find where it is said that the 21st century Christian will be the recipient of that blessing.However we are blessed by the written word left by those who Jesus promised the comforted. I ask once again point me to this scripture if it exists.
@Laymond - interesting that you accuse us of accusing :)
Sorry if you have read our comments that way. I have never sensed Paul accusing me of "not being indwelled by the true spirit" and I hope that he has not sensed that from me.
Concerning "Where is it said we will be guided by that indwelling spirit" -
Romans 8 speaks to this when it says "those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God". Also I might point you to the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1Cor 12 and other places where it speaks to Holy Spirit gifts of discernment, wisdom and understanding. Also those passages you reference also speak to the Holy Spirit teaching us as well as comforting us.
IMO the issue of being led by the scripture exclusively makes following God a matter of intellect.. how good a reader you are and how much your brain retains when you read.. and then there is that issue of folks who cannot read.. and the people who once did not have the bible in print.
Hopes this helps a bit with regard to what I am saying about being led by the Holy Spirit.
Guess I'd like for you to explain what it means to have a relationship with God if the leadership of the Holy Spirit is not involved. Do you think that the Holy Spirit gives us wisdom when we ask for it according to the verse in James 1?
And, just to be clear, I am not accusing you of anything.. just asking you to share your thoughts :)
Bob, when you or Paul tell me they believe the other is led by the true spirit of God (the same spirit as you) into the beliefs they hold and teach, and that belief has to be the right way, because it is God’s way, then I will say you are not accusing the other of false beliefs. I will ask is this spirit fickle to teach so many different beliefs, to teach you one way and Paul in another?
The bible teaches everyone the same thing. Consume the word of God and believe, and you will be saved.
Concerning the regenerating power of the Gospel message.
Mt:4:4: But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mt: 13:19: When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Bob said: Romans 8 speaks to this when it says "those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God"
Jesus said
Jn: 6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Bob said: Also I might point you to the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12 .
Lets look at the first line in that chap. “Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant“ and goes on to say all those gifts are from God..
Bob said: “Also those passages you reference also speak to the Holy Spirit teaching us as well as comforting us.”
There is no us there Bob, Jesus is speaking to his apostles.
Jesus is speaking to the apostles gathered, look at what he said to them,
Jn: 15:3: Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jn: 15:7: If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8: Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jn: 15:26: But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
Bob does this sound like US is included in this conversation with his apostles who were with him from the beginning of his ministry. I don't think You, me or Paul was there from the beginning.
@Laymond - I guess according to that definition all debate is trading accusations. I think that folks can debate each other's views without entering into accusation.. but maybe you are right?
I appreciate what you have to say but didn't see in it how you think one has a relationship with the Lord. Do you feel that a relationship with God is exclusively limited to reading and studying the bible and figuring His will out with our brain and conscience?
Bob, my personal relationship with God is based on the word of God, brought by his son Jesus. I commune with God through prayer, he answers me by his own will, If you give gifts to your child, how much more will God give his children. My personal relationship is that of Father and child. I ask and he gives, if it is his will. My relationship with God is based on love one for the other.
@Laymond - I may have said it differently but I appreciate what you have said.. and I appreciate you as a brother in Christ.
I wasn't going to comment, but Laymond is leading into unbiblical territory here (to put it bluntly). Jesus ascended into Heaven so that He could send the Conforter (aka the Holy Spirit), so that we may have a relationship with God. Without the Spirit in our hearts, we are no better off than the Israelites of the OT. It is the Spirit that calls us out of sin and to God. It is the Spirit that enables us to communicate with God, through prayer. It is the Spirit that fills us with the perfect love of God, without which we cannot love Him or our fellow man. In short, the very same Spirit that filled the Apostles and the 3000 on Pentecost can fill us now. There is NOTHING that any of the Apostles had that we cannot have today.
These concepts are firmly grounded in Scripture.
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever" (John 14:16). I think "for ever" means "forever". The same Holy Spirit is still here today and accessible by any of us.
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Rom. 8:9). We CANNOT be children of God, without the Holy Spirit living in us.
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:38-39). As you can see, the promise of the Holy Spirit is passed onto us.
"For through [Jesus] we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father" (Eph. 2:18). Access to God is through the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent after He ascended.
"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit" (Eph. 5:18). How else can we be "filled" with the Spirit, unless it dwells within us?
I thank God that I can have the same glorious experience that the Apostles had. That He witholds no good thing from us, including the One thing that empowers us to live righteously all the days of our lives! :)
Greg, you are not the first to get the "gift of the Holy Ghost" confused with "The Holy Ghost"
lets see if we can find the difference within scripture.
Acts:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
( we see in acts:2:38 peter said receive the gift of the Holy Ghosts)
Jn:20:22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
(in Jn.20:22 Jesus said receive the Holy Ghost) It don't seem to me as if they are talking about the same thing. But we don't have to guess.
Jn:4:10: Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
(living water, eternal life)
Rom:6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(see we didn't have to guess what the gift of the Holy Ghost is)
Unless you don't believe the Spirit God is "The Holy Ghost".
(one is eternal life, the other is the power of God)
Laymond, this is the first time that I've heard your interpretation of these scriptures, and I cannot see it. God, through Jesus Christ, gives His children MANY gifts, including the Holy Spirit Himself!
In Acts 5, when Peter and the other Apostles were brought before the high priest and questioned about Jesus, Peter answered in verse 31-32, "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince ans a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." So, God gives us salvation, as well as the Spirit. To whom? To Peter and his cronies only? No, to "them that obey him".
Also, near the beginning of Acts 6, Stephen and the other 6 appointees are described as being "full of the Holy Ghost".
Also, read Acts 10:44-47: "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"
There are many, many other scriptures that confirm that the Holy Ghost (same as Holy Spirit) comes to dwell in the children of God. This is indeed the greatest difference between our life now and the life of the Israelites, before Jesus came. It is by the Holy Spirit that we communicate with God and live righteously.
Thanks again for all the participation. I like to hear everyone's thoughts concerning those things.
I don't think that there are any accusations, and if so? We should be mature enough to know that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:1)
Kansas Bob;
If an evil or demonic spirit controls or leads a person, then that spirit is the master or lord over that person.
The same as when the Spirit of God indwells, controls and leads is the master and owner, Lord and Father over you.
The same control and leading, but different Spirit!
It would be unthinkable to say that a devil or a demon has the power over you to get you to do whatever he wants, and the Spirit of the living God Jesus Christ never gets His act together to cause you to do and to will for His own good pleasure.
Bob, I think you know better than that!
As for me, I am a living testimony to that.
Once a hater of God, lover of pleasure and lover of self, held captive in the kingdom of Satan to do his will (2 Tim. 2:26), Next, in a twinkle of an eye the Lord Jesus came and made His residence inside me, resumed Lordship and Kingship over me. He set me free from the control and leadership of Satan and gave me the power to resist the devil and turn away from sin, He forgave me all my sins and continually cleanses me from all unrighteousness, He changes my desires and draws me to Himself so that I delight in Him and walk in all His ways, He has began a good work in me and will continue till the day of Jesus Christ.
I can go on and on to tell you how great and wonderful my Jesus is.
It was all the work of Jesus and not my own.
'By the work of Jesus', I mean the work of the Holy Spirit! Since the Lord is the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17).
The Holy Spirit is not another person who is in God, like all the Trinitarians teach. The spirit of Satan has led most believers astray by doctrines such as the Trinity, they cannot discern between the Spirit of God and the spirit of the devil.
Paul
Laymond;
One of the Apostles was a devil (John 6:70).
Satan spoke through another Apostle (Mat. 16:23).
Why elevate the Apostles, they are mere men just like you and me.
It is the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead who indwells every born again believer including the Apostles.
Laymond; I don't agree with your interpretation of those passages.
The comforter (the Holy Spirit) was not only for the Apostles, but for every born again believer after.
Bob is right in saying you cannot be exclusively led by the Scripture or you become an intellectual Christian.
And on the other hand I don't believe that you are a Christian because you believe in Jehovah and not in Jesus.
You would be considered by every Jehovah Witness to be a Jehovah Witness. The Mormons and the Catholics and every devil believe in Jesus but they certainly do not believe that Jesus is LORD.
The good thing about you is that you condemn the Trinity, but even that is of no benefit since you cannot accept that Jesus is both LORD and GOD.
Paul
Greg;
Excellent explanation and a big AMEN from me!
Greg said "It is by the Holy Spirit that we communicate with God and live righteously."
What Jesus said about communicating with God.
Jn: 16:23: And in that day ye shall ask me nothing.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
26: At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you,
that I will pray the Father for you:
27: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me,
and have believed that I came out from God.
Mt: 6:9: After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Greg said; "God,through Jesus Christ, gives His children MANY gifts, including the Holy Spirit Himself!"
The apostle Paul said.
1 Cor: 12:1: Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren,
I would not have you ignorant.
1 Cor: 12:28: And God hath set some in the church, first apostles,
secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles,
then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29: Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30: Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1 Cor: 12:31: But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
If we look back in this chapter we see Paul said no one is special, in the church because they have a gift, different from another.
Paul goes on to explain what he is saying in chap 13.
And he sums it all up in this way.
1 Cor :13:8: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies,they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10: But when that which is perfect is come,then that which is in part shall be done away.
11: When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child,
I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13: And now abideth faith, hope, charity,
these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Paul is saying these special gifts are given in the beginning
To set up the church, once it is set, there will be no need for gifts and they will exist no longer. These gifts are replaced with faith in Jesus Christ,
Hope of receiving the promise, and love one for the other.
You see we no longer need special gifts in order to believe.
We have the full Gospel , in the written word.
Unless you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ was incomplete,
there is no need for the miracle, of an indwelling Holy Ghost.
As we see in all the gospel, there was no private miracle performed by Jesus Christ,or any of the apostles , these miracles had a two fold purpose,to convince people Jesus was who he said he was, and show the love of God for the suffering. So you see we don't communicate through "the Holy Ghost" and we don't receive gifts, and special instructions through "The Holy Ghost" we have the written word of God, The Gospel of Jesus Christ. And as Paul said the Church has become fully established,and the special gifts have run out of time.
@Paul G - I think that we will have to agree to disagree on this:
"The same control and leading, but different Spirit!"
I do not believe that the ways of Satan and the ways of God are the same at all.
I'm with you Laymond.. when we see God "face to face" there will be no further need of spiritual gifts. My understanding is that "face to face" time has not come yet though as I have not died. So until then we all desperately need the Holy Spirit. On that timing I suspect that we will probably have to agree to disagree.
I suspect so Bob, one question, where do you see the "face to face"
phrase.
@Laymond - You quoted the phrase in 1Cor 13:12. I rejoice that in that same verse it says "then shall I know even as also I am known".. magnificent thought about that moment when we see God "face to face".
OK Bob you and I understand that differently, You said ("when we see God "face to face")
I understand it to mean we will see our self/ the church, as God sees us. since there is a mirror involved there.
@Laymond - what about the "then shall I know even as also I am known" part? I do not know as God knows me.
Laymond, I can see we are not getting anywhere. Your assertions are made outside of scripture, and you selectively twist a handful of verses for support. You have also skirted around most of the verses I have mentioned, particularly Romans 8:9 and Acts 5:31-32. Unless you can explain away those verses Biblically, I will need to move on.
Paul G, I'm glad we agree on many things, however I wanted to back Bob up in saying that while Satan wants to USE us, God wants us to LOVE Him. While God DOES have the power to control us, He doesn't get his kicks that way. Instead, He wants to draw us to Him, fill us with His Spirit, and change our hearts, so that we will WANT to serve Him. It becomes part of our nature. If you are a father, is anyone FORCING you to nourish and care for your children? Hopefully not! You do whatever you can for them, including being willing to DIE for them, because you love them. And you love them unconditionally, simply because they are YOUR children. And would you FORCE them to love you back? Maybe, when they're little, you might have to punish them once in a while, to get them to obey. But what you really want is for them to obey because they LOVE you. Same with your wife. You wouldn't want to FORCE her to stay with you; you want her to LOVE you and cherish you as her husband willingly and in the fear of God. IT'S THE SAME WITH GOD.
Greg, As for Romans 8:9: I believe you should start earlier in 8:5. maybe you can see what is meant there.
Rom:8:5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
as for acts 5: 31:32 I have never said God did not ever give the Holy Spirit, and as long as you insist that every believer is included, there is no reason for me to continue to try to reason with you. but if you wish to convince people you are indwelled with the Holy Ghost, all you need to do is perform a few miracles, heal a few lepers, raise a few dead, you won't have any trouble convincing others then.
Laymond, perhaps you can expound a little on how Romans 8:5-9 supports your view. I'm actually right in the middle of an in-depth study of Romans.
Regarding Acts 5:31-32, I mentioned it in order to counter your earlier statement that only the apostles received the Holy Spirit, which is simply untrue. Literally THOUSANDS of people in the NT received the Holy Spirit, and there is nothing that I can see in the Scriptures to indicate that this was going to stop anytime in the future. If you have some scriptures that show this, please list them.
Lastly, the Bible is clear that not everyone who receives the Spirit performs miracles. There actually WAS an incident several years ago, where I believe the LORD performed a healing through me. But more than this, people around me can see the work of the Holy Spirit in the way I show them love and how I have changed to reflect Jesus Christ in me. The Apostle Paul says that love is the greatest goal for us to pursue.
Greg said:"Regarding Acts 5:31-32, I mentioned it in order to counter your earlier statement that only the apostles received the Holy Spirit,"
I don't believe I said that, but if I did I certainly misspoke, Jesus gave the apostles the power of God, and they passed it to others, but there the passing stopped.
Greg said: "There actually WAS an incident several years ago, where I believe the LORD performed a healing through me."
You had the power to do one healing but no others, Benny has you beat nine ways from Sunday. You need to talk to Paul G. you are to far out for me. bye
Laymond, just to clear the air, some days ago, you said, "I can show you where Jesus promised a comforter for the Apostles he was leaving behind...." While you did not explicitly say that ONLY the Apostles received the Holy Spirit, it was implied in your statements. I can accept your belief that there were others who received the Holy Spirit. However, there are other scriptures that I have pointed out that indiscriminately affirm that ANYONE can receive the Holy Spirit, without any expiration dates or exclusions mentioned.
Seems to me that your opinions are based simply on lack of empirical evidence, maybe in your own life and that of others. But there are loads of written accounts that describe miraculous healings, resurrections, and the like, from anitquity to the present day. I suppose, if one tried hard enough, one could dismiss all of them, but the only evidence I need is in the Bible and in my own heart. No use bashing heads about it, I suppose. :)
@Laymond - concerning:
"You had the power to do one healing but no others, Benny has you beat nine ways from Sunday."
I am sad that you felt the need to mock Greg that way. My first wife Ellen was healed of blindness in 1975 - mock if you wish but her healing got my attention and her changed life impacted me deeply. Feel free to read the story here. I have also witnessed a few other healings - most notable was one in the Philippines in 1987 when I witnessed a woman healed of deafness.. again mock if you wish.. sorry you cannot accept the testimony of Paul or me.
Bob, I wouldn't even pretend I know what happened with your wife's eyesight, or try to explain it in any way.but whatever happened I believe it was between her and her God.
I have never said that I did not believe God performs miracles in peoples lives, If I believed that, I would not bother to ask for one when I pray I not only believe in miracles I believe I have been the recipient of at least one. But it had nothing to do with a healer in any church building, what we call miracles, is not a miracle to God at all, it simply is the work of God on a believing child. What I am saying is I don't believe God needs the help of a human being to perform such miracles, and I don't believe God relinquishes his power to all Christians. I believe the administration of miracles depends upon the faith of the recipient in God's ability to perform such miracles. I don't believe God lives as such in human bodies here on earth, I do believe faith in God lives in human beings,the spirit of faith.
Bob; I agree with you that the ways of God are not the same as Satan's.
But Satan imitates everything of God in order to receive worship.
He disguises himself as an angel of light and a servant of righteousness, he becomes everything you like him to be in order to receive honour, glory and worship.
For this reason he is called the god of this world.
He divides God into three persons and takes on the name 'Jesus' and makes himself to be the second person of God.
He makes his abode in the Pope of Rome and demands that you call him 'HOLY FATHER', and causes all the naive to honour and worship him (the Pope). Etc.
Paul
Greg;
Again I agree with your good explanation of those passages of the Scripture.
However there is a slight difference in the way you portray the Lords power.
You said that "God wants to love him, to draw us to Him and to fill us with His Spirit etc."
If God really wants to love him, then why doesn't He love him? What is holding Him back?
If God wants to fill us with His Spirit, why doesn't He do it?
If He wants to bless us, why doesn't He?
If God wants to build a house, why doesn't He? Who is binding His hands? Who frustrates his plans? Etc.
You see Greg that God does not want to do things, rather, He does things. He commands everything to be and holds it together by the word of His power.
If God loves you, then He makes the glory and the riches of His love known to you, not just in words but in demonstration.
The same is for everything pertaining to God including salvation.
Regards
Paul
Lets look at the only times I find the spirits of God were given in fullness by God.
If anyone knows of other times please say so.
THE PROMISE
Isa: 11:1: And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3: And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
THE FULFILLMENT
Jn: 1:32: And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Jn: 3:34: For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Jesus Christ made a promise to his apostles.
THE PROMISE
Jn: 14:16: And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jn: 14:26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
THE FULFILLMENT
Jn: 20:21: Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jn: 20:22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
As we see God sent Jesus forward armed with the Spirits of God. And as Jesus said to the apostles, "as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.”
Jn: 3:34: For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Yes there is evidence as to where the apostles gave the spirit , in part/ by measure. If there are scriptures where an apostle gave the “Spirit” in fullness. As was bestowed upon Jesus and from him to them, I am interested to read it.
Paul, please read my comment again; I did not say "God wants to love him", I said "God wants US to love Him". That makes a WORLD of difference. While God can do anything He wants, it is a paradoxical impossibility to force someone to to love Him, because love, by definition, must be freely given. While no one can foil His plans, He limits Himself and abides by the rules He makes. For example, it was He who made the rule that sin has to be atoned for and held Himself to that rule, by dying on the cross for our sins.
To argue that we are nothing more than puppets in His hands is to excuse sin. You seem to promote an extreme version of Calvinism, where our own actions don't matter, because God is the Master Puppeteer. But if that were so, then why do so many verses in the Bible exhort us to seek after God, shun sin, and live righteously? If there is truly nothing I can do to change the course of my life, then I might as well stop living for God and live according to my fleshly desires.
Laymond, I won't quibble about semantics with you. I've already mentioned several of MANY scriptures that talk about someone being "filled" with the Holy Spirit. When a vessel is full, it is FULL, containing the maximum of a substance, without room for anything else.
It is strange when one uses scripture only to prove a point, It is considered by some as quibbling.
But when some one states something, not in the bible, out of ignorance, they consider it fact.
Here is someone else to quibble with,
Acts: 1:1: The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2: Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5: For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
If we look back to Matthew we see this forecast, by John.
Mt: 3:11: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Now lets see just how many people Jesus personally baptized.
Jn: 4:2: (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
Lets see what Paul said about, receiving the Holy Ghost. and who is was intended.
1: And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2: He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3: And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4: Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5: When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7: And all the men were about twelve.
Lets look at what Paul said about baptism to the church at Ephesus.
Eph:4:5: One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
What baptism do you think it is that is left.(the baptism of repentance,)
I can't imagine anyone receiving the Holy Ghost today, since the apostles who gave it, have been dead for centuries.
Laymond said, "But when some one states something, not in the bible, out of ignorance, they consider it fact." Yup, I was thinking the same about you. :)
I think I understand a little better where you're coming from. Because there were cases where the Apostles laid their hands on people to give them the Holy Ghost, you assume that that was the ONLY way for the Holy Ghost to be given to someone. However, on the day of Pentecost, over three thousand people received the Holy Spirit, without anyone laying hands on them. So, we have one case, where it was not necessary.
Here are a couple other cases, where no touching was involved:
"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness" (Acts 4:31).
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word" (Acts 10:44).
I dare not put God in a box and dictate to Him how people should get saved or how He should administer the Holy Spirit. I also accept no man between me and my savior. It is through Jesus Christ that I have access to the Holiest of Holies. He is my High Priest; not a pastor, or minister, or anybody else. :)
Laymond, before I could even consider your viewpoint, you would need to reconcile it with Romans 8:9 and 1Cor. 3:16, which says, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" There are a lot of scriptures that you would need to ignore or twist, to fit a Spirit-less model of salvation.
I suppose given your belief, it would be foolish to ask if you believe a Christian could ever fall from grace. Once saved always saved.
Not foolish at all to ask. :) This is a subject that I've studied and prayed about a LOT. To answer your question, I certainly believe that you can lose your salvation. I know there are many who would disagree, but "once saved, always saved" is unsound at best, and a ploy of Satan, at worst.
So this may beg the question, How can a Spirit-led person fall into sin? Paul and Bob will probably have opposing viewpoints, but I believe that we retain our free will and can always refuse the leading of the Spirit.
But maybe that's off topic.... What about Romans 8:9 and 1Cor. 3:16? :)
I don't think it is "off topic" at all, since Kinney set the topic and he said it was "Differing Ideologies"
And it amazes me that you and I do not differ on this one.
And my question was connected to the subject of indwelling spirits, as you suggest some might ask how a person indwelled by the spirit could possibly fall from God's hands, how does this work, do you just kick the boarder out,is the Holy spirit a visitor or is he a permanent resident? As for the phrase "filled with the spirit or ghost" it depends on the context in which it is used as to what it refers to. it is used a few times and they do not mean the same every time. As we see in Revelation there are seven spirits of God mentioned there and, I believe it was in Isa. 11:2 where they were named, and you can be filled with either of the seven, not necessarily all of them.And as we see most times mentioned are temporary.
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My apology Greg!
I have a problem not seeing the little word 'us', since I'm looking to the big word 'Him'.:-)
It surely makes a world of difference.
Interesting; Bob also used the word 'Puppeteer' in one of his comments.
Just say; If there was only God alone and He created all things, then all the strings would be attached to the hand who created all things except the free will, and even the free will is made by God and we know that the free will is not totally free to do what he wants to.
Therefore God still holds the strings to that free will.
Hmmm; that looks to me that the Lord Jesus is the Master Puppeteer after all.
I don't find it a problem that His strings are attached to me.
If he would cut those strings and leave me to my own devices, surely I would end up in hell.
Why would one not like to have Jesus as the Lord (Puppeteer) controller and governor?
Why would one not trust Him to pull the right strings?
Puppeteer is a word which the flesh does not like to hear just like word 'Despot'.
All of us know what a despot is, and we don't like to think of our wonderful Lord and God Jesus Christ to be a despot.
Acts 4:24 "Sovereign Lord," they said', (that is translated from the Greek word despot).
Oh, by the way; I agree that "once saved, always saved" is not a Biblical doctrine.
If a man loses his salvation by what he does, then he was saved by what he did.
Did Jesus die for all my sins, or only for some?
If I lose my salvation because of sin, then I was not forgiven at first.
Paul
Laymond, although your question was related, we had been discussing whether or not there is Biblical foundation for believing that we can be indwelled by the Holy Spirit today. I am glad that we at least agree on some things. :) There are still many things I don't understand, but I've interpreted the "seven spirits of God" as "seven angels of God". God is One Spirit, not seven.
Paul, I'm glad we got that "us" issue straightened out. Now regarding puppeteering (the term was probably in my subconscious, from having read Bob's comments), I would not mind at all if God did that with me. I fully trust Him, no matter where He leads me. But as much exhortation as there is in the Bible, I can only conclude that true free will is a big part of the equation. I've clashed with many a Calvinist over this issue, so I'm not going to make a big deal of it; just wanted to state what I believe.
You (Paul) said, "If I lose my salvation because of sin, then I was not forgiven at first." Years ago, I came to that exact conclusion, largely because of our pastor's intense belief that Christians cannot sin... EVER. But as I prayed on it and studied the Word more, I came to the conclusion that Jesus can only forgive the sins that we've ALREADY done. Sure enough, He paid for ALL the sins of mankind, past, present, and future, but we can only accept that gift if we repent. And how hypocritical is it to tell Him you're sorry for what you are GOING to do? What would your wife think if you told her, "Honey, please forgive me, but I'm going to cheat on you tonight." How sincere is that apology? Aren't you just looking for a way to make your sin more acceptable?
But we're straying again. :)
I see in most instances where the indwelled spirit is mentioned, it refers to our thought process, if we think about spiritual things, we are apt to do righteous things. If we continue to base our thought on carnal earthly things we are more apt to sin, I believe that is what Paul was teaching those at Corinth. I have to leave the conversation, be gone for a while, enjoyed everyone's opinions, although I don't agree with much of them.
Greg;
True free will!
Just think of the chaos we would have, if God, Satan and man would have a true free will.
Surely we and Satan would tear the Lord Jesus off His Throne and set ourselves on it.
I believe that we have a will, but that will is NOT free, it is bound to the one who owns us, either the Lord Jesus or Satan.
The truth is that there is only one who has a true free will and that is Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yes I can hear everyone thinking; If Jesus has a free will, why could He only do what his Father tells Him to do? (John 14:31)
Well brothers, my true free will is not even good enough to stick to the topic.:-)
You said; "He paid for ALL the sins of mankind, post, present and future."
Perhaps you should tell that to those who are in hell.
Surely they would say, are you kidding! If Jesus suffered for our sins, then why do we ourselves need to suffer here in hell? What kind of atonement is that?
No Greg! I suggest that you do revisit this subject but next time in the light of the sovereignty of God.
Lots of love
Paul
Paul, it seems you LOVE an argument, but I won't give you much of one. I believe my previous comment addresses both of the issues you raise:
Concerning free will, I am so tired of debating that issue, that I will not get into it with you.
As for Jesus' atonement, Hebrews 10 addresses that beautifully. But I WILL give you an analogy: Say I put an ad in the paper, saying that I have purchased a car for every household in my city. The only catch is that they need to come and get the voucher from me. Does EVERYONE actually get a car? Only those who come to pick up the voucher will get one. And if they either neglect to come or later abandon their car on wreck it, how could they POSSIBLY blame me for not having a car???
I want to thank everyone for your thoughts on this discussion. I think we can have different opinions and ideologies and still be in Christ. We can still all strive to do his pleasing and perfect will. We won't and I don't think can agree on all issues but we can strive for the "unity" that Christ desires all believers to have. Love above all things. Thanks again for your thoughts and comments on this subject.
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