preacherman

Friday, January 12, 2007

Why Are You Working For?

I remember working in California for a Church sixty hours a week. The Sr. minister called me in his office and told me that if I wanted to make a name for myself I had to work more hours. So I ask you ministers why are you work working for? Are we working to making a name for ourselves? Do we over work oursevles and neglect our families to make a name for ourselves? Do we strive for the Masters or PHD to make a name for ourselves? Are we striving to get hired at a mega church so that we can make a name for ourselves? Are we striving to make friends with those who are already well known so we might be well known so we might be invited to lectureships, workshops so that we can make a name for ourselves? Are churches to blame for this temptation? Why or why not?

Or Is it all about serving God? Glorifying God? Living up to our calling as ministers? Are we as ministers working for God? Working to please him? Using our gifts and talents? Are we satified and content where God has placed us? Do we understand as ministers that God wants us to take care of our families first, take care of our children, spend time with our wives? Why is taking care of the family so important? What happens if we neglect our families for the sake of making a name for ourselves?

What do you think?
Share your thoughts.

45 Comments:

Anonymous Tim Archer said...

I remember some folks that wanted to make a name for themselves (Gen. 11:4); that didn't turn out so well.

I've seen guys play the system to move ahead. I wouldn't trade places with them.

Let God make a name for me; I'm not going to try it myself.

Grace and peace,
Tim

8:12 AM  
Blogger Benjamin Potter said...

Several years ago as I was speaking with my friend and supervisor, he told me, "Benjie, I don't know any successful pastor in the 'States who doesn't work fewer than 65 or 80 hours a week." The conversation included how I, as a missionary (at the time), was concerned about my time being stolen away from my family.

Now, as a pastor, I consider myself "on call" for the church at all times. I'm not so sure what "successful" means in the terms he was using. I do know that when my ministry is a focus on me and takes time away from family then it is no longer ministry but self-advancement.

My prayer is that I will always do what I do for the glory of God. I could do hundreds of things to make a name for myself that would not be honoring to God--even in the guise of ministry.

9:27 AM  
Blogger Alan said...

All Christians (not just ministers) are instructed to do everything for the glory of God (1 Cor 10:31). That's 24x7, not a 40 hour work week.

Most members of the church hold 40-hour a week secular jobs. They are to perform their jobs as service to God. (Col 3:23-24). But they also serve the church in more direct ways outside their 40 hour work week.

What I'm about to say may sound too corporate, but I think there is a spiritual message in the midst of it.

Ministers should give their 40 hours service, plus they should at least match what the rest of the church does outside the 40 hour work week. Further, they should exceed what the average member does outside the 40 hours, or else they are not out in front and therefore not really leading.

Some ministers consider the time spent at church services as their "work" time, and take time off during the week to compensate. I don't buy that. The rest of the church works a 40 hour week and still comes to church. Often these folks teach classes or fill other responsibilities at the services.

I know this is not a problem in the case of some ministers. Some are fully devoted to the work of the Lord every waking hour, never missing an opportunity. Others leave their churches wondering what they do all day.

12:31 PM  
Anonymous Young Wanderer said...

Preacherman,
Great post.
I am a young minister in my 20's.
We need to be reminded that we are working for God not to make a name for ourselves. Pride gets in the way some times. I know when I go to visit a church while on vacation I think often to myself I could be preaching a better sermon than that guy. I then pray to God to humble me and remind me why I am in ministry and service.

I do think that churches are a little to blame as they are looking for the personalities of those who have the "big name".

Alan, I agree that we should work 40 hours a week and that congregations need to know what we do throughout the week and not include Sun. and Wed. as work days.

6:09 PM  
Blogger Wade Tannehill said...

I agree with the above sentiments that preachers should put in 40 plus hours a week based on the principle that the committed member puts in a full work week and church volunteer work in addition to that.

But to say that the hours spent on Sunday are not a part of the work week is ludicrous!

- If my livelihood and the livelihood of my family depends upon my being there, then it is a work day.

- If my job performance (and continued livelihood) is evaluated largely on the basis of my performance on Sunday, then it is a work day.

- If I do not have the option of taking occasional weekend getaways with my family like other people because I have to stay in town to preach, then it is a workday.

- If I have to teach three times on Sunday, as I do now, in addition to attending monthly elders' meetings and putting up with the pettiness of my critics, then it is a workday.

- If I have to attend church after an ice storm and over half the congregation stays home because our county has been declared a disaster area (as recently happened where I am), then it is workday.

Because of some unique circumstances that apply to ministry families and do not apply to members of the congregation, you cannot compare the two. For the minister, Sunday is definitely a work day.







-

10:47 PM  
Blogger Bill said...

I appreciate so much the sentiment you express in this post. I don't want to sound too simplistic, but I've always drawn my guidance and inspiration from the Holy Spirit's encouragement to the slaves living in Colossae:

Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people. Remember that the Lord will give you an inheritance as your reward, and that the Master you are serving is Christ.

12:33 AM  
Blogger Alan said...

Hi Wade,

I understand what you are saying. I'm not objecting to calling Sunday a "work day" from that point of view. I'm objecting to the time some ministers take off during the rest of the week as a result. Some ministers have more free time than anyone else in their congregations, and that is not right.

8:19 AM  
Blogger Trey Morgan said...

Preacherman... I don't know about you fellow ministers, but I only work "one day a week." ha

Actually as a young, immature minister fresh out of school, the lure of being a big name speaker at a lectureship or mega church was a dream, but I'm thankful (and so is my wife) that as the years have gone by I have matured in my life.

It's amazing how God reprioritizes your life. Being a speaker at a lectureship or being a preacher for a mega-church aren't even interesting to me anymore. I find myself being to interested in people around me to care about the things above. Raising 4 boys, being a great husband, serving those who God has placed in my life has become my love.

As the old book says, "Just bloom where you are planted."

8:53 AM  
Blogger Laymond said...

Preacherman- The very first thing a person needs to determine when they think they are called to preach the Gospel to the multitudes, is this do I want to be a servant or do I want to be a leader.and then Am I up to the sacrifice to glorify God or do I want the glory.

Let me help you along with the answers.
The word leader is spoken exactly twice in the new testament, Mt. 15-14 and acts 24-5 neither time is a compliment.
Servant is there 153 times and is used most times complimentary.
Mt:10:24: The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Who pays who's salary, who is the lord and who is the servant?
We are all called to be humbled before God---preachers are called to be humble before God and Man.

10:03 AM  
Blogger Wade Tannehill said...

Alan,

Your point is well taken and I appreciate your gracious response. I would venture to guess you've had some bad experiences with ministers.

Most of the ones I know have trouble disciplining themselves to take one full day off each week. Most of my friends err more on this side, myself included. That could be because my choice for friends are high caliber people and not shiftless bums. I put in at least 50 hours a week and work 6 days a week most of the time. I don't feel particularly persecuted though, because I consider ministry a lifestyle and not just a job.

3:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Preacherman,
I believe we should be working for God and not for making a name for ourselves.

Wade is so righ...Sun. & Wed. are workdays for pastors.

Ron, MI

5:49 PM  
Blogger Alan said...

Hi Wade,

I've witnessed some outstanding servants (ministers). And I've witnessed some who loved to lord it over others more than they loved to serve. As an elder with a full time secular job, I simply expect the minister to be as tired at the end of every day as I am ;-) I think ours generally is.

Alan

10:40 PM  
Anonymous A Fellow Elder said...

Alan,
As a fellow elder I understand your concern. The question I have for you tired being an a shepherd, an elder at end of the week or do you expect the minister to do your elderly duties. What do you expect your minister to do? Preach? Teach? Do funerals? That does take prep. Visits. That takes time.
As an elder I don't won't my minister to be as tired as I am at end of the week I want to care for him becuase he is part of the flock. I understand at end of the week is his busiest days and I want him to be at his best!
I want him to take time with his family.
I want to take days off.
I want him to get rest.
I care about his spiritual life.
I don't want him to get burned out and quit without notice.

Alan, I want to encourage you as a fellow elder to care for your minister. Ministry is to tough. Eldership is more than making dissions. Love you minister and his family. See what happens to him and your church. You will be blessed.

12:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Work and neglect the important things in life. Why? We work to "make a name for ourselves" or is Tim Archer right? Does "God" make a name for ourselves? I believe Tim Archer is right God makes a name for us. And doesn't really boil down to the heart of a person. Yes, I get sick and tired of hearing the same people at lectureships and workshops. I get tired or reading the same books from the same authors. It gets old. So, I am waiting for God to pick the next set of "Big Names". Aren't You?

12:43 PM  
Blogger JD said...

I think Alan's comment about preacher's work time is so wrong on so many levels that I have a hard time deciding how to leave a short comment.

I've always been willing to work for an hourly wage. Please.

Also, if we are going to go corporate, make sure you pay half my Social Security, make sure my benefits package is competitive in the marketplace. I want to be sure to have raises that are commensurate with advances in education, training, experience, and cost of living. I would like to advance in the 'company' as well when that time comes. Please be sure to note that none of these are a part of my "package deal". Also, I do not want to bargain on stuff like this.

At the same time, I want to be supported as I do Kingdom work. Perhaps there are some times when it is a bit slower than others. My day "off" is at the beck and call of whichever member decides to call and engage me in their lives. I do not complain about this.

When there is a carcrash at 3:00 a.m. or a Wedding on game day, or I miss significant family events because the elders want the preacher in town over the holidays ... then let's talk "40 + hours".

Alan, serious re-think time.

blessings,
john

5:59 PM  
Blogger Alan said...

John,

I think you missed my point.

Plenty of "ordinary members" spend 20 to 30 hours a week serving the church outside their secular jobs, and sometimes more. But I've known some ministers who have time every week to play golf, fish, go to movies, and do many other recreational things that no other member in their congregation has time to do.

I know some who used to be ministers but are now selling real estate. They have told me that when they were ministers they had no idea how hard it was to hold down a fulltime job, manage a family, and be actively involved in the work of the church. It has been eye-opening for them.

Ministers should be servants. And many are. I'm not talking about them.

In response to "a fellow elder said": My comment about him being as tired as me was tongue-in-cheek. In more direct terms, I just expect him to be as devoted as I am. We have been given a serious responsibility for the flock, and we will be held accountable. This is not a game, and it is not a job. It is a mission from God.

And yes, the minister is part of that flock...as I am.

8:29 AM  
Blogger Laymond said...

I know, no body gives a hoot what I think but I will say it anyway hasn't stopped me before.
I totaly agree with Alan there are some who believe all you have to do is set up and deliver a sermon or two on Sunday; job done. A church I know hired a young preacher paid $1000 per wk. the church door was locked on most days and you could find him baby sitting at home (by the way furnished by church) while his wife was elswhere. That is great to help at home but not on a work day, once fine twice fine but not everyday. needless to say he was fired. They say the guilty dog barks, I believe we are getting to many barking dogs on this question.

9:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9:39 AM  
Blogger Benjamin Potter said...

Pardon me for a second comment--but "sour grapes." I believe that's what I hear from ministers and non-ministers alike on this subject. Having sat on both sides of the pew, I find it interesting that church members feel that the preacher works only one hour a week, and then he works too long.

On the other hand, I hear ministers bewailing the fact that there is little or no commitment on the part of the members when it comes to actually doing Kingdom work.

Yes, there are abusive ministers and they should rightly be dismissed. What should we do about those church members who expect that simply attending church once in a while is adequate to exemplify Christ, then?

The whole thing started with a question about for whom we work? The answer, from both sides of the pulpit--in regards to the lives of believers--ought to be "FOR CHRIST!!!" All too often it is for self-gain and self-advancement that we do anything (in the name of honest work or in the name of ministry).

I think that the question that arises now is not about how many hours spent "in the office" and how many are spent "volunteering" but whether or not our time is spent in God-honoring activity. There is no time-clock to punch when we become believers in Christ--it's a 24/7 deal (or no deal!). That means that the time we spend at work, with family, at play, at volunteerism, is all time spent for God. It isn't a contest, it isn't an opportunity for jealousy.

Peter looked at John and asked the Savior, "What about him?" Jesus, in reply said, "What's it to you? You do what I told you?" (see John 21:15-23 for the whole story)

3:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Preacherman,
I am a minister and greatly appreciate this post. I understand that you are talking not about the time that put in but making a name for ourselves. I have been tempted to make a name for my self. Pride. Pride has been my struggle. I have struggled with it for years. I even considered hiring a PR agent in helping me in searching for churches and getting my name out. I am not joking. It wasn't until I understood my sin of pride and dealt with it that God started blessing my ministry. I understand that it doesn't matter being a mega church. God can use me wherever I am. I praise God for that I am his servant.

A No Name Humble Minister of God

5:28 PM  
Blogger Laymond said...

PM I know this was not the original question posed by you but as usual it turned into a totaly different direction amd became what should a preacher be responsiable to do. I don't believe a preacher will be judged any differently than any member. We should all do as we are blessed. It reminds me of the penny given by the widow, she gave all she could. we all should look to her for our example and not worry what others do. we should work for the glory of God not for self.

10:00 PM  
Anonymous Brother Jack Bailey said...

Laymond,
I understand your point. Alot of preachers are judged differently than other members of the congregation. Held to higher stnadards. Responsablities. Duties. Moral Conduct. Even how wife and children behave. How many community activities they go to every week. It has been said that only 10% of the church does the work. Others just come and punch their time cards. (That's their skewed view of the widow who gave her penny).
Keeping with topic. I work for the Glory of GOd. I believe that all ministers should work to glorify God and not in order to make for name for self. I work for Him. God is my boss.

1:11 PM  
Blogger Josh said...

I think you should send this in to the Trinity Broadcasting Network.

Seriously, though. I think we all have the temptation to be "great in the eyes of men". I do anyways. When did that temptation become so huge I wonder.

I'm curious as to how many Christians that we've never even seen or heard are huge in God's eyes. And I long to find what makes them huge in His eyes. Good post.

2:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kinney, Sharon saw your blog and gave it to us..it has been interesting reading it....we think of you and your family often...pray that you will get stronger day by day and soon you will be back to your old self...give all the family a hug from us and you all have a good day..love you guys...Jo Ann B.

8:40 PM  
Blogger Royce Ogle said...

WANTED - GOSPEL PREACHER
Congregation in Stuckinthe50's, Iowa seeks pulpit minister.
We are a 61 year old congregation with 78 members, 2 elders and a song leader.
We offer a salary based on experience and provide a 2 bedroom 1 bath house for you and your family. The house needs some work but you can make any improvements you desire with the elders approval.
The ideal candidate must be between 25 and 35 years old, married and have children. He must preach sound doctrine and provide a video of at least 2 lessons. He must have a degree from a conservative brotherhood school (a cappella) and a minimum of 3 years pulpit experience with a record of church growth.
Duties will include dynamic pulpit ministry Sunday morning and night, teach an adult class before worship hour, teach a weekly class at an after school program for 6th grade kids, set up and conduct studies with the lost in the community weekly, visit the local hospital and 2 nursing homes regularly and preach at one of the nursing homes once a month. The ministers wife must be humble and ready to teach the ladies of the church on Tuesday mornings 51 weeks a year.
All ministry will be under the eldership and will be expected to correct the error of the Baptists and other infidels. Lesson plans must be pre-approved for the first 3 months so that the elders can be sure they are doctrinally sound.
Send all enquires to bro' U R Wrong, P.O. Box 20, Stuckinthe 50's, Iowa
_______________________________________________
This would be really funny if it were not so true. What churches like this are looking for is SuperSaint! Just step into the nearest phone booth and come out in a Wal-Mart suit holding well worn KJV bible and begin the work that should be done by about 50 or 60 people and see how long you last before you burn out.

I posted this a few months ago at Grace Digest sort of as a joke, but it is sort of true also. Churches of Christ expect more from preachers than any group I have ever seen.

Those of you who think preachers works only 4 or 5 hours a week need a wake up call. Most of them listen to members whine more hours than that.

I understand there are some bad apples, but there are also many great, godly men, who are over worked, under paid, and under appreciated by those they serve.

Grace and Peace,
Royce Ogle
gracedigest.wordpress.com

2:23 AM  
Blogger Wade Tannehill said...

Laymond,

Your comment about "guilty dogs barking" was judgmental, assumptive, and offensive. You are making judgment calls about motives of the heart into which only God has true insight. It may not have occured to you that the minsters responding to Alan's comments are actually hard working ministers who are sick and tired of working 50 plus hours a week and then having people who don't follow them around all day ASSUME that they know what they do. The attempt here is not to "bark" but to educate the masses about unfair stereotyping based on isolated experiences and limited access to the facts.

2:32 PM  
Anonymous Darin said...

Alan,

I spent over 10 years both working in the corporate field and volunteering at the fellowship we were involved with. Because of this I understood first hand the responsibilities that come with working for a business, keeping up as a father/husband, and volunteering with teaching, song leading etc.

I agree with your point but it seems we have taken two different tacks because of it.

Because of my experience I try very hard not to overburden members with work for the church since their corporate endeavor is a work for the church. Because of my experience I take on a lot of tasks because I want people to build strong and healthy homes so that the church has a strong future. I think that families are working for the church when they take time to build healthy homes.

I agree that I shouldn’t count as work any activity that is what normal members do. This is why I work all day on Wednesday and stay on until everyone is gone without thinking I need time off. This is why when I cook for our men’s breakfast at our home I don’t think I need time off during the week.

It also seems that we worked in two very different corporate environments and because of that we have two different corporate expectations. In my business days if I needed to take an afternoon off for family needs I was allowed to. I had a job that allowed me to come in early so that I could leave early and other such concerns. So we may agree about corporate attitude but many different corporate expectations exist beyond your experience.

I am very interested to read more about this church where members put in 20 to 30 hours above their 40 hour work week. I would like to see what they are getting done for the kingdom. I think it would be a great case study. I would be interested what impact if any this has on their family. Does the church with 20 and 30 hour volunteers have a web site? If you could get me their name I would love to speak to their ministers.

2:35 PM  
Anonymous Gallagher said...

Great post with challenging words. Too many people (preachers, elders, ministers, deacons, regular members) get wrapped up in making a name for themselves and not a name for God!

2:55 PM  
Blogger Ancient Wanderer said...

Oh where to start?

WADE- laymond must be taken with a bag of salt.

Preacherman- you have hit the spike on the head with a sledge.

Yes, there are lazy Preachers.
Yes, there are lazy members.
Yes, there are lazy elders & elderships.

My Comment:
My wife and I used to work and serve the Lord everyday. We had two weeks vacation each year. Most years it was one week at Church Camp and one week most years was split between Gospel Meetings [local congregation] and Lectureships. I served the Lord in my job (family business) to the point that one day I quit and went into preaching.

So, I have a different notion of what a "working" member in a local congregation is. And I have no idea what-so-ever what "the end of the day" means.

IMO: Preachers are not members of the congregation.

Now, to the actual post- If the Lord wants you big FOR HIM He will make you big. There is that whole first is last - last is first thingy.
And I think some, most, all "working" Preachers are driven by a need to please God but unfortunately not always in good way.

AW

5:07 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I want appeciate everyone's comments and understand that everyone has differing oppinions. I believe ministers should be working as for God and not in order to make a name for self. We are only human. We fail. We sin. We desire the things of this world. Our flesh and spirit struggle just like anyone else.
We have temptations.
Ministry isn't easy. It is a calling.

Some ministers God has placed in churches of 0-50;50-150;150-300;300-500;500-800; and mega churches. I am blessed to be at a small loving church in a town of Rocksprings. God has place me here for a purpose. This church is so loving and have giving me the time to heal. If you are ever near Rocksprings on vacation love to have you visit us.

Paul stated, "It is no longer I but Christ." Yes ministers put in countless time that many members and elders are unware of. My prayer is that we as ministers will strive to continue base our ministries on the author and perfector of our faith.

Be careful that your judgement of those ministers at larger churches is not jealousy coming out.

Again thank you for sharing your thoughts.

6:26 PM  
Blogger Alan said...

Hi Darin,

I can name some people in my congregation that spend 20+ hours a week serving the church. This includes elders, deacons, teachers, people who lead our singles and teens, etc. I'm counting personal Bible study, teacher preparation, hospitality, and many other forms of service in this.

We are called to do everything we do for the glory of God. I mentioned that in my first post on this topic. It's 24x7 for the minister, and 24x7 for the members. That includes taking great care of our spouses and children, for the glory of God. It also includes serving our brothers and sisters in many ways. And it involves feeding the homeless, serving shutins, visiting the sick, etc. It also involves praying for them.

Following Christ isn't something we do when we can fit it into our schedule. It's not just something we do, it's what we are, at our very core. It's what we live for.

What I'm trying to say is about focus, heart, single-mindedness, and devotion. It's not about doing tasks. It's about why all those people are voluntarily sacrificing their time to serve God.

10:20 PM  
Blogger Alan said...

Sorry but I need to make one more comment on this.

I think we are all seeing different sides of the same elephant. We've had different experiences and therefore are emphasizing different sides of the same truth. If our experiences were reversed, our posts probably would be also.

Let's love our ministers, and our congregations, and most of all our Lord. if we do that we'll all be just fine.

10:46 PM  
Blogger Chance said...

This is slightly related. What many ministers seem to forget is their obligation to their families. Other occupations do it, but ministers use the excuse that "God is the most important thing", so they naturally look at the ministry as a way to please God, but they forget that how they treat their families can also please God.

"Making a name for yourself" sounds pretty weak.

1:33 PM  
Blogger Neva said...

I thought we all already had a name, Christian, Bride of Christ, Redeemed, Saved, etc.
Whether we are preachers or "just plain old ministers". He made a name for us and we work for Him. Even our "boss" needed time for Himself and His Father. He did not neglect His own and neither should we. Just a thought.
In Him,
Neva

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