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Thursday, June 09, 2011

Tough Questions Part 4

Do you believe in the Trinity? Is the Trinity as Biblical concept? Why or why not? How would you discribe the Trinity to those who don't understand? How can God be 3 in 1? Is it like family, Father, Son, Mother? Why do some not believe in th Trinity? Why do some believe in God, Jesus, and not the Holy Spirit? Why do some believe in God and not in the divinity of Jesus? Can Jesus be both human and divine? Was Jesus God on earth? What would you say to someone who believes in God, believes in Jesus but not his divinity? Does the Holy Spirit indwell us or is it as some would say, the Bible? Does each member of the Trinity have a purpose and if so what are they?

What do you think?
Share your thoughts.

51 Comments:

Blogger Kansas Bob said...

Like you Kinney, I believe in the Trinity. As it is your blog I will leave it up to you to explain it to Paul and Laymond when they make their cases against it. But if you do not feel up to the task I refer you and them to this page for an explanation of the Trinity and the many scriptures that support the concept.

6:04 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob, this is a quote from the article you recommended. “They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God.”

This is a new way to say god is a trinity, as far as I know. At least I have never heard anyone say god has a multi-personality disorder before. (three personalities in one body.)

Dissociative identity disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis and describes a condition in which a person displays multiple distinct identities or personalities (known as alter egos or alters), each with its own pattern of perceiving and interacting with the environment.

7:14 PM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

@Laymond - Feel free to argue the wording at the site with the site's author. You can submit corrections to him here.

I do hope Kinney will weigh in at some point. I believe that the Church of Christ supports a Trinitarian view but maybe not.

10:37 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob, since you recommended it, I just assumed you agreed with it.

And yes some,(the liberals) but not all CoCers agree with you, but that don't make them right, most used to agree with me. God/ the holy spirit, spoke through Jesus, god's servant, as well as others. and the holy ghost/ power of god was given as a gift to a very limited few. That said I believe God himself, still performs miracles.

11:10 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

I mainly agree with the scriptures on that site Laymond. But if you disagree with his wording you should by all means tell him.

11:17 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob, this is what my home church says about God--There is only one God. He is the creator of all life and the supreme ruler of the universe. God is a single person who shows himself to men as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Bob, I disagree with only one word used here, if we replace "AS" with "THROUGH" I totaly agree.

11:21 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I will. I believe in the Trinity. I think Bob's link explation is right on with scripture.

1:00 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Kenny and bob, I skimmed through Mr.Slick's pages, and must admit I have never read anything written by a person more devoid of the intelect required to explain what he is trying to explain. In my opinion Mr Slick is trying to make money off other's research, he just the same as admits it when he said, if you see mistakes, and show a true correction, I will change it, and admits he has done so already. Like I said in my opinion Mr. Slick is trying to make money off another's research. And he has accepted and written things he has no idea what it means.

2:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Christians are faced with a dilemma. The Bible says in the Old Testament, "I, even I, am the Lord; and besides me there is no savior" (Isa. 43:11). "Salvation belongeth unto the Lord . . ." (Psalms 3:8. "For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour . . ." (Isaiah 43:3).
According to the Old Testament, only God can be the Savior. In order for Jesus Christ to be the Savior, he must also be God. Trinity advocates use such illogical, logic to prove that Jesus is god.
If there were a man overboard drowning in the sea,and a man on the ship threw him a life presever and the man was saved. who is the savior, the life jacket or the man who threw it.? Jesus was that lifeline and God was the one who extended it.
Who was the savior? Who was the savior in the flood, God or the ark.? It really isn't that hard to understand God has used many things to help and eventually save his creation. Just as the hammer is not the carpenter, and the pole is not the fisherman, Jesus was not God.

laymond

4:02 PM  
Blogger Paul G said...

The Trinity is not a Biblical concept.
No Israelite in the OT ever believed that God is three persons in one God, if they would have, they would be stoned to death. The Lord your God changes not, He is the same yesterday, today and forever, "Hear O Israel the Lord your God is ONE", consequently He is not three!
The Trinity came first into existence by the rise of the Antichrist.
First was the Christ revealed (Jesus Christ came in the flesh) and shortly after emerged the Antichrist the man of sin and his Church (the Catholic Church) (2 Thes. 2:3) who exalts himself to be God by taking the title which only belongs to the Lord our God Jesus Christ (HOLY FATHER).
There are many Antichrists, but the first Antichrist was the first Pope by the name of Linus from AD 67-76, even though the Catholic Church claims that the St. Peter was the first Pope from AD 32-67. However that is not true because Peter was not designated to the Gentiles (Rome) but to the Jews (Gal. 2:7-9), and certainly Peter is not the man of sin and would never take the title "HOLY FATHER" of which the Lord Jesus forbid to use (Mat.23:9-10).

The Trinity was first invented by the first Pope the Antichrist and his Church in about AD 70 and then in the late forth century strictly monotheism was formally rejected by the Vatican councils in Nice and Constantinople and the Trinity that God is three persons in one God was universally accepted as a Church tenet.
You can see that every Catholic crosses his heart and reaffirms with three crosses the three persons of her gods, for this reason (the Trinity) she (the Catholic Church) is called the harlot Church because she has many gods, also she is called the MOTHER of HARLOTS because she gave birth to every TRINITARIAN CHURCH universally regardless of their denominational names.

3:54 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Laymond;
I like your comment that God does not have a multi- personality disorder :-) this is so true. Trinitarianism just sounds like it.
You are honest and intelligent enough to know that the Trinity does not add up at best.
But you still have not yet come to Jesus, but believe in that other god "Jehovah" which is a false and unknowable god.
The Bible said that Jesus is the true God (1 John 5:20), so then that other god Jehovah certainly is a false god, because there can not be two true gods.
Jesus said that if you do not believe that Jesus is that true God then you will die in your sins (John 8:24). That is a serious charge and I hope you know what that means? Or I will gladly explain it.
All Trinitarians without exception do not believe that Jesus is that true God of the Scripture alone, but that He is a God with two other persons or identities and so they also will die in their sins just like Jesus said.
This Trinitarian lie is so powerful to deceive even the elect if possible and to all who do not love the truth the Lord will send them a delusion so that they will believe the lie (2 Thes.2:11).
And NO! There is no middle ground either, you cannot believe in Jesus and in someone else, or serve two masters.
And narrow is the way and only few are those who find it. So then it is of great importance that everyone who wants to be saved will turn away from any other god to Jesus Christ who is the LORD the way the truth and the life.

4:01 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Sharon;
Sorry that I missed your comment response a couple of posts back, I have read them now.
A short comment;
It is just as you have said that God is a mystery to you. He is a mystery to you because you don't know God and so you think because you don't know God, therefore anybody else doesn't know God either.
But you are greatly mistaken; I do know the Lord God the Almighty and I boldly and without restraint proclaim Him Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
That which is a mystery to you is NOT a mystery to me since the Lord Jesus has made known to me the mystery of God namely Christ (Col.2:2 + 4:3 +Eph. 3:9).

Sharon,; only a person who loves you will tell you the truth, but a person who hates you will conceal the truth and with flattery weave a net so that you might be bound and entangled.

4:04 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Believing the Trinity or believing in a god called Jehovah is exactly the same sin, the sin of unbelief.
Jesus said, "in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me"(John 16:9). That is because the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving (2 Cor.4:4).

I do not say that you do not believe in God, but I say that you do NOT believe in Jesus Christ who is God over all (Rom. 9:5).
Remember that every devil and demon believes in God (James 2:19), and every Jehovah Witness, Mormon, Catholic, Muslim and Jew also believes in God, but not one of them believes in Jesus Christ the Lord.
They all acknowledge Jesus and know about Him, but they do not believe in Jesus or know Him.
And the Lord will punish all those who do not know God (2 Thes.1:8), but as many as He loves He rebukes and disciplines (Rev. 3:19).

8:39 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Paul do you believe this actully calls Jesus "The true God" or does it call Jesus the son of the true God. ?
Paul, I will refer to the NIV because this is what we use as the pew bible, I really like the KJV .
NIV - 1Jo 5:20 - We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
(Jesus never once claimed to be God)
NIV - Jhn 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,* you will indeed die in your sins."
NIV - Jhn 8:25 - "Who are you?" they asked. "Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied.
(what was it Jesus claimed)?
NIV - Jhn 8:12 - When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
NIV - Jhn 8:26 - "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."
NIV - Jhn 8:29 - The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."
Paul just who is Jesus speaking of when he said "he who sent me" and "the one who sent me" I hope for once you will not ignore, my question and go off on a tangent not concerning my question. please answer whom do you think Jesus was speaking.?

10:33 AM  
Blogger Sharon Bennett Bohnenberger said...

Paul, if you reject the doctrine of the Trinity, then what do you do with verses such as Matthew 24:36, “But concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

If Jesus is both Father and Son (which makes less than zero sense in itself), then how can the Father know, but not the Son?

Love in Christ, ~ S

9:18 PM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes Laymond; Jesus is speaking about Himself when He said "he who sent me" or "the one who sent me" or "the one who sent me is reliable" etc.
Just like He swore by Himself because there was no greater one to be found (Jera.22:5).
Or do you think that somebody else sent the Lord Jesus?
Do you think that Jesus is someone else's delivery boy?
If Jesus would have been sent by somebody else, then Jesus would NOT be the Lord God the Almighty, but that 'somebody else' would certainly be the Lord God.
But the Scripture is clear that "Jesus Christ is God over all forever praised" (Rom. 9:5).
And again yes! Jesus Christ always claimed to be GOD, and for that reason the Jews condemned Him to death on the cross, because they thought that He is a mere man claiming to be GOD (John 10:33) and (John 5:18).

Look Laymond all Scripture must be spiritually interpreted and discerned.
So then I will share a secret with you, a secret which only belongs to the children of God to those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord.

# For you and anyone else who wants to understand the Word of God, the Bible, the Scripture;
In regard to God, you must have Jesus Christ in centre stage of the entire Bible.
You must agree and believe that the entire Bible from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 points to, and speaks only about Jesus Christ alone.
And that Jesus Christ is the Word of God came in flesh, the living Word.#

If you preach, teach, proclaim and exhort from that premise, then it is impossible for you to be wrong and to be lead astray into false doctrines.
If you transgress on that, then your preaching and teaching is false, dead and boring.
Ups! I nearly forgot; before all that, PRAY! And ask the Lord Jesus that He would give you a Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God, and remember that apart from Jesus you can do nothing.

Here is an example;
If Jesus is in the centre stage as the ONLY ONE TRUE GOD of the entire Bible, then the Lord Jesus Christ does NOT have a Father. In fact it is absurd to say that the Lord God the Almighty does have a Father.
So then who is the Father?
Again, all Scripture of the entire Bible points to the Lord Jesus and there is no other Father except the only one true God which is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Here you can see that Jesus has the centre stage in all my explanations and there are numerous Bible verses to support and prove that Jesus is the Father.
Conclusion: Jesus does not have a father, rather He is the Father.
Perhaps you might ask; why then does Jesus speak so as though He would have a Father?
Again you must believe what Jesus said; (John 16:25) "Though I have been speaking figuratively about my Father".
Here you can see that Jesus always spoke figuratively, which is metaphorically, or in likeness, or in type about the Father, and look it gets better! Jesus said, "from NOW on I will speak PLAINLY about my Father".
Wow! I would love to tell you more about my wonderful Jesus, or perhaps I will say my wonderful heavenly Father.

Trinitarians can not say that, because they do not believe that Jesus is their heavenly Father, they believe just like you that another one is your father, and yes there are only two fathers, one is your heavenly Father Jesus and the other is the devil.
Jesus spoke in parables or figuratively so the wicked would not understand, but to the righteous it has been granted to understand.

5:39 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Another explanation;
Keep in mind that I can use any verse or passage of the Bible.
If the Lord Jesus is 'center stage' in that verse; (John 10:30) "I and the Father are ONE", then JESUS is the Father and the Son, and that is ONLY in title and not as in two persons.
It is Jesus Christ the (ONE person) who holds BOTH titles (Father and Son.)

Perhaps you can see that Jesus holds the highest position in that explanation, (center stage).

The truth is that Jesus Christ is nobody else's Son, but rather that He 'IS' the Son, or is CALLED the Son, that is also metaphorically speaking just like the Father.
The Lord Jesus is only called the Son in the sense that God (Jesus) who is the Holy Spirit (John 4:24) clothed Himself with flesh.

In the beginning 'Jesus Christ the Lord God the Almighty' who is the Holy Spirit (John 4:24) who did not have or needed a physical body or flesh (Genesis 1) created the world and everything in it (John 1:1-3). God, who's Name (Jesus) had not been given yet, prophesied through the mouth of all the Prophets that He would come at the appropriate time and be born into His own creation through a virgin and so would become just like one of us a man Emanuel = God with us (Veiled the incarnate Deity).

Again Jesus is only CALLED the Son of God, as said in (Luke 1:35) (called)!
I could go on and on to tell you of His Glory, Majesty, Dominion and Power as the only begotten Son of God full of grace and truth.
Having said all that;
I do not want you to think that it is all about doctrines and understanding the Bible, even though that is good. Jesus said (John 5:39-40) "You diligently search the Scripture because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life".
Here you can see that you should turn away from your false gods the Trinity and Jehovah and come to Jesus Christ and be saved, because there is no other Name given whereby you must be saved.
Again my testimony is true and reliable and I do not lie.

5:48 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Sharon:
I am not ignoring or avoiding your question, but my comments are getting longer and longer and Matthew 24:36 needs a long explanation just like John 17 the Lords prayer.

But the rule of understanding and explaining a verse or passage of the Scripture is, #that you should NOT override a primary statement with secondary statement #.
The primary statement is that there is only one God and that is the Father (1 Cor. 8:6) and that Father is Jesus (John 10:30).
And Matthew 24:36 is a secondary statement where Jesus states the 'knowledge relation' between a Father and a Son, or between God and man, and remember that God really became a man just like one of us Emanuel JESUS.

5:52 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Paul in John 5-46,47 Jesus said this .

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Let's take a look at what I believe Jesus was talking about.

Deu 18:15 ¶ The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well [spoken that] which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him.
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Paul, if Jesus was not this man/ prophet, that God promised the Jews, who was?

10:15 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Sharon, I agree that (Mat 24:36 ¶ But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.) shoots down Paul G's doctrine, but how in the world does it confirm the "trinity". I believe it also shoots down the "trinity" because if god existed in three seperate but equal "persons" would't each of the three know what the other two knows? please explain how this bolsters your belief in the trinity.

10:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/trinity.html

Since Bob put his link up, I will post this one. copy and past if it does not lead you there by clicking on it.

laymond

11:23 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

Thanks for the link Laymond. Here are the verses the linked article uses and my feeble attempt to interpret them with a Trinitarian perspective:

===
"Why callest me good? There is none good but one, that is God" (Matthew 19:17)

>>Jesus did not say "Do not call me good". My thinking is that Jesus is affirming his deity by reflecting back something the person said.

". . .for my Father is greater than I. . ." (John 14:28)

>>In that same chapter Jesus says "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." Yet at that point in time the Father was greater than Christ because he was not limited by a human body.

"My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

>>Often Jesus speaks as the Son of Man (i.e a human) and not the Son of God. Such is the case in this verse.

"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt." (Matthew 26:39)

>>Often Jesus speaks as the Son of Man (i.e a human) and not the Son of God. Such is the case in this verse.

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)

>>Often Jesus speaks as the Son of Man (i.e a human) and not the Son of God. Such is the case in this verse.

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32)

>>Often Jesus speaks as the Son of Man (i.e a human) and not the Son of God. Such is the case in this verse.

"Who has gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God" (Peter 3:22)

>>The metaphorical language in this verse really does not speak to the issue of Christ's deity.
===

Laymond, I imagine you may not agree with my take on those verses. Instead of rebutting my views on them I would be happy if you would offer your take on the Trinity verses in your linked article or my linked article.

It may be more fun to pick my views apart but I think that it would be more productive to at least understand how we each view the scriptures in those linked articles.

12:35 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob, this is an excellent example of the KJV translators adding what ever they thought would help their cause.

NIV - Mat 19:16 - Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
NIV - Mat 19:17 - "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

Actually the way I understand it the man never called Jesus "good" at all he only asked what he must do to be saved. none of the later versions call Jesus "Good Master" they simply call him teacher.

">>Often Jesus speaks as the Son of Man (i.e a human) and not the Son of God. Such is the case in this verse."

Bob, yes I know Jesus often spoke of his own volition, as he was moved to do so, but, never as anyone but "The Son of God" he knew his father as far back as twelve years old, and never denied it as far as I know. Yes Jesus spoke the words God gave him to speak (when he was teaching, after his baptism) but he was not
a robot, he had his own thoughts and even his own will. as we see when he said "not my will"

">>In that same chapter Jesus says "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." "
Yes he does, and yes he was right to do so. (no man has seen the Father) but.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(Jesus was the visible image of the invisible God)

"Who has gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God" (Peter 3:22)
No Bob Peter does not speak directly of the deity of Jesus, but it does speak of the equality of the two. they are not equal.
". . .for my Father is greater than I. . ." (John 14:28)

5:56 PM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

@Laymond - Interesting how, after offering my views on the verses in the article you asked us to read you would not do the same.

I asked you to "offer your take on the Trinity verses in your linked article or my linked article" and you chose to pick apart my answers instead. I think that it would be helpful to hear your take on those verses supporting the trinity in the article that you yourself linked to.

6:13 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob,in your link.
In my opinion, none of the scripture quoted from Isaiah, refers in any way to Jesus.

John 17:3 (NASB95)
3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 Corinthians 8:5–6 (NASB95)
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, ...

Galatians 4:8–9 (NASB95)
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, ...

Yes I believe these scriptures say there is but "One God" and that is what I believe also.

Now I am not going through 54 scriptures and give my opinion of what they mean. I have neither the time or space to do so.
If you wish to pick out a few of your most convincing, I will try to address those.

6:15 PM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

@Laymond - Not sure which Isaiah scriptures you reference. Here are the ones from the article that you linked us to:

===
"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30);

". . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 17:22);

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was God" (John 1"1);

". . . that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me and I in Him"

". . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father. . ." (John 14:9)

". . .Holy Father keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."John 17:11

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 3:8,9.
===

Look forward to reading your views on these verses.

6:32 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

#1 "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30);
The bible also says that man and wife are one,
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Man and wife are one by covenant of marriage, Son and Father are one by covenant of birth.

#2 . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 17:22);
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(Jesus was the visible image of the invisible God) I thought I answered this above.


#3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was God" (John 1"1);
(Jesus became the word at baptism, not at birth.)

#4 ". . . that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me and I in Him"
(A father and child (each one in the other) are you in your child, and your child in you? yes, think about it.)

#5 ". . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father. . ." (John 14:9)
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(Jesus was the visible image of the invisible God) I thought I answered this above.

#6 ". . .Holy Father keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."John 17:11
I believe this is Jesus asking for another comforter, for his children, the apostles.
(keep through thine own name, The Holy Spirit/ghost)
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

#7 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 3:8,9.
It is Col 2-9. Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The word translated here is theos, which means god.
NIV - Col 2:9 - For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Jhn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

I don't see any hint of the "trinity" here.

8:21 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Bob, don't you think if the trinity was so important so as to become the foundation creed of Christianity, it would have been mentioned at least once in the bible?

And yes there were many people killed over this very thing.

8:35 PM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

Thanks for your views on those verses Laymond. Helps me to know where you are coming from. And I am okay not to use the word Trinity as I am okay with simply saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

9:49 AM  
Blogger Kathy said...

Just a quick hello. Rather than comment on your blog, I'd like to ask a question. I can't help but notice your absence on preachermike.com blog and your insightful responses. I pray all goes well for you and I continue keeping you in my heart's prayers.

8:53 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I believe in the Trinity as I stated earlier. It was like that in the beginning...

Gen. Let US make man in OUR image.

5:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The trinity does act like a family, Father, Son and the mother being the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit being the one who gives comfort, etc.

6:29 PM  
Blogger Paul G said...

It is interesting;
On this page alone we have three groups with three distinct different beliefs in three distinct different gods, identities or persons.

(Group 1) is Laymond and all Jehovah Witnesses who believe in one god (one person) called Jehovah.

(Group 2) is me and all the disciples and ambassadors of Jesus Christ the Lord, who believe in one God (one person), that Jesus Christ alone is the Lord God the Almighty the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last, the only true God and eternal life.

(Group3) is Bob and all Trinitarians universally who believe that God is a group of three persons called Trinity, or called God.

It is obvious that not one of you in (Group 1) and (Group 3) believes in Jesus Christ the Lord. You are skillfully representing, defending and proclaiming another god, other than the Lord Jesus Christ.
If you really would believe in Jesus Christ, then you would be ambassadors of Jesus and not of your false gods.
For this reason your Churches are dead, because you have fallen away from the Lord Jesus to another god, and it makes no difference whatever you call him.
For this reason the back-doors of your Churches are bigger than the front-doors, because your Church-practices are contrary to the Word of the Lord.
The true Church of the Lord Jesus loves the Lord Jesus with all their heart, mind, soul and strength and glorifies only the Lord alone, because all the glory must be to Jesus alone and not to any other person.
Paul

9:07 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Paul, lets look at all the names Jesus is known by in bible scriptures.
#1 Servant of God.
#2 son of God
#3 son of man
#4 lamb of God
#5 mediator between man and God
#6 word of God
#7 high priest, appointed by God
#8 Christ, anointed of God
#9 prophet
there are others, but never God.

3:04 PM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

@Laymond - consider these "I am" statements that Jesus made:

===
“I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger.” -John 6:35

“I am the light of the world; he who fallows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.” -John 8:12

“I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!” -John 8:58

“I am the gate; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” -John 10:9

“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for His sheep.” -John 10:11

“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies.” -John 11:25

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.” -John 14:6

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” -John 15:1
===

The "I am" statement in John 8:58 seems to be a direct reference to his preexistence.

So while you may recognize his deity you may recognize his uniqueness in the view that he was not merely a human like you or I.

3:25 PM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Let's look at the first sermon Paul preached about Jesus.
Act 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with [his] hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
And after that he gave [unto them] judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
Act 13:21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

Now Paul gets to the story of Jesus Christ, and how he became savior.

Act 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the [son] of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
Of this man's seed hath God according to [his] promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not [he]. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of [his] feet I am not worthy to loose. Men [and] brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled [them] in condemning [him]. And though they found no cause of death [in him], yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took [him] down from the tree, and laid [him] in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead:
And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Wherefore he saith also in another [psalm], Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
Act 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Paul called Jesus a man at least twist, unique yes, but a man.

5:31 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

God has many names. Names discribe who he is and what he does.
Jesus has many names. Names that discribe who he is and what he does.
Right?
God is God.
Jesus is God.
Right?
I don't get how you think that different names like Jahovah and Yaweh are different Gods?
Is I AM a different God?
Is Emanual a different God?
I'm not quite getting it.

5:40 PM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Kinney; it is as you have said, that you really don't get it and neither does Laymond.
God does not have many names as you have said.
God has only ONE Name "JESUS", He never had another Name nor will He ever have another Name.
Descriptions and titles are not His Name; they are just that, descriptions and titles.
The Lord said in (Exodus 3:14) that my name is jealous, that is certainly not His Name, it only describes that the Lord Jesus is a jealous God who does not want you to believe in another person to be also a God.

In the beginning Gods NAME had not been given.
Throughout the entire Old Testament no one knew the Name of God, (Jud.13:18) Manoah asked for the Lords Name, He said, "It is beyond understanding". (Ex. 3:14) Moses asked for the Lord for His Name, He said, "I Am who I Am". Or it will be what it will be.

Jehovah is a name, but that has been rendered out of "WHWH", disputably some say Yahweh. However that is NOT and never was the Lords Name.
The first time when all creation new the Name of God was in (Luke 1:31), when the angel Gabriel said to Mary, "You are to give him the name JESUS"!
We and all the angels of heaven rejoiced that finally the Name of God was revealed.
JESUS is the Name of God! And that is the Name which is above all names, and at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess, (say, preach, teach and proclaim) that Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the one who was and is, and is to come, Jesus Christ the Lord.

Kinney; the "I Am" is a different God to you, but NOT to me.
To you and all Trinitarians the "I Am" is the Father, another person than Jesus; in fact it is the same false god as Laymonds (Jehovah).
To me the "I Am" is Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
You believe in two gods, and I believe in ONE God Jesus Christ the Lord.

2:36 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Bob; your comment seems to line up with what I have been saying all along, but why then don't you abandon your other god? Remember that you can't serve two masters.
Because of the TRINITY you always will end up in error, and your preaching becomes futile.
By the way, God did really become a human just like you or I. Or are you saying Jesus was not a human?
God created you in His image; perhaps I should say, Jesus created you in his image, are you then three persons??

If you then are not three persons, how can you say that God is three persons?
Bob; this is not a lack of your intellect, but a deception from Satan.

The only difference between Jesus, you and I is that Jesus had only one nature, the nature of men which is the nature of Adam. And for that reason He is called the second Adam.
But you and I and all of us we have two natures, the nature of Adam (men) and the nature of Satan (the beast).
At the cross of Calvary, Jesus had to deal with our satanic nature and of course with our sins and transgressions.
Paul

2:40 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Mat 1:1 ¶ The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
(unless God is the son of David, and Abraham, then Jesus is not God)
Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
(this is Jesus)
Jhn 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Jhn 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he].

Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
( we seem to forget, Jesus is answering for his Father, and we apply his answers to him)

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

When you claim Jesus is God, you don't know how many times you accuse Jesus of lying.

10:42 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Laymond;
It is as I have said in previous comments that according to the Spirit, Jesus is the Lord God and is nobody's son, but according to the flesh Jesus is the Son of God, but more accurately He is CALLED the Son of God.

God is Spirit (the Holy Spirit) (John 4:24) and became a man, or was clothed in flesh, and according to His flesh His human ancestry was traced through Joseph and Mary, - David – Abraham – Adam and then God who is Spirit (John 4:24)and (Gen.1) Jesus Christ the creator of all things (John 1:1).
According to the Spirit Jesus is the "root" of David, which means the Father of David and according to the flesh (human ancestry) He is the "offspring" of David, which means the son of David, but more accurately He is CALLED the son of David, just as He is also CALLED the Son of God.

Jesus is also the Father of His humanity (flesh), (Luke 1:31) the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and fathered His own humanity, keep in mind that God is the Holy Spirit and clothed Himself in flesh (veiled the incarnate Deity) and from that perspective Jesus calls His Spirit "Father". So then, when Jesus speaks about His Father, He always speaks about His Spirit. Example; "the Father is greater than I", means that His Spirit is greater than His flesh, His flesh was limited and His Spirit is unlimited and in that sense His Father was greater.
"The Father is in me and I am in the Father", means that the Spirit is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Spirit, just like me, I am in the Spirit of God and the Spirit of God is in me or I am in Christ and Christ is in me etc.
Jesus was not answering for His Father as you have said, but He speaks by the Spirit which is in Him, just as I also speak by my heavenly Father, Christ the Spirit which is in me.

Jesus said that He was before Abraham or David (John 8:58), therefore it would be impossible for Him to be David’s son, but rather Jesus is Abraham, David and Mary’s heavenly Father just as He is mine. The Lord Jesus is our "Father", because we all were born again by His Spirit and we were in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Laymond;
Because you do not believe the testimony of Jesus, therefore you would not believe my testimony and my testimony is Christ the Lord.
Paul

5:22 AM  
Anonymous laymond said...

Paul, may God forgive you for you know not what you do.

9:38 AM  
Blogger Paul G said...

Apart from telling you the truth, I haven't done anything.
By the way, which God do you think should forgive me, your god Jehovah or my God Jesus Christ the Lord?
As far as the Lord Jesus concerns, He already has forgiven me for all my sins and transgressions and paid with His life on the cross so that I may have life and life abundant.

I am aware that for every careless word I speak, I have to give account to my Lord.
And yes, I do know what I do, I am telling you the truth, so that you would turn away from that other god Jehovah to the Lord Jesus Christ who is God over all.

Laymond; I did not make the way so narrow, it was the Lord Jesus who said "that narrow is the way and only few are those who find it" (Mat.7:14)
If there are only few who find it, then I certainly would like that you would be one of those few.
The narrow way is the Lord Jesus Christ, just as he said "I am the (narrow) way, the truth and the life".

I know that there is a great host of Church- people who think that they can and will believe whatever they like to believe and perish. But you Laymond, do not believe them or follow them, turn to the Lord Jesus Christ with all your heart and forsake any other god, for the Lord our God Jesus Christ is a jealous God and He does not tolerate any other god, person or identity beside Him.
Paul

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