Thoughts on the Holy Spirit
Believe it or not there are some Christians who still believe and preachers that preach that the Holy Spirit is the word of God only.
I believe that the Holy Spirit indwells the Christian. We recieve the Holy Spirit at the point of baptism according to Acts 2:38.
Why do some Christians and preachers still preach that the Holy Spirit is the word of God only? Is that quinching the Spirit? If you believe that the Holy Spirit is the word of God tell me why you believe it. Do you believe that they Holy Spirit is the word only or do you think it indwells and empower the Christian to live the Christian life? Does this issue on the Holy Spirit really matter to the Christians salvation? What do you think?
Share your thoughts.
posted by preacherman @ 9:48:00 AM
42 Comments:
"And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.... And if the Spirit of him who raised Christ from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you" (Romans 8:9, 10).
That seems pretty clear to me.
Wow... I've never heard that preached at all. Interesting point, nonetheless, however I don't agree with it.
Who was the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, before the Word of God was written?
Preacherman great post yet again.
I want to thank you for having discussion that matter and that make you think. I believe that the reason people believe that the Holy Spirit is the word of God only is in over reaction to the Pentecostal movement in America. They have taken it to extremes like people do alot of times. When we go to extreme when it comes to our doctrinal beliefs then we are wrong.
The Bible is very clear that the Holy Spirit lives within us. Helps us live the Christian life.
I totally with John Alan Turner's scriptures. It is as plain as day.
I have no idea why people think that but they do.
I Believe in "indwelling" as well as "inspiration of the word of God"...I always hoped (at least lied to my self) that the vast majority of the brethren who pushed "word only" were making a statement about inspiration.... PLEASE DON'T BURST MY BUBBLE.
-------
'the prophet'--
..... """Who was the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, before the Word of God was written?"""
There was no "indwelling" before Christ established His church. The Holy Spirit is God. :)
AW
Preacherman you have finaly found something you agree with AW on and naturally I do not. Lets say your interpretation is correct,when you are baptized the Holy Spirit becomes a resident in your carnal body. do you believe once a person is baptized into the church they can never fall from the Grace God has provided no matter what they do. and the Holy Spirit will just overlook the sinful temple he is co-habitating with a sinner or do you believe we cease to sin once we are baptized. I believe they call that Calvinism. Yes we are changed if we are baptized for the right reason, but if you read Paul carefully you will find falling from grace is quite possible. I just don't believe it would be possible if we had a Holy Boarder. It is something we all need to look in to.
The Holy Spirit is still God, and he can not stand to look upon sin. that is why Christ hides us from his sight. I could write many articles on the subject and have.
God Bless
John Alan Turner,
Thank you for your comments. I totally agree and your scripture reference makes it as you said, seem pretty clear. Again, thank you for you comments. I love for you to stop by my blog any time and join the discussion.
The Prophet,
Thanks for your comments. I am glad you haven't heard that kind of preaching. You are blessed. AW's comments is what I would have said explaining your question.
David,
Thanks for stopping by. I agree that people do sometimes over react to other groups in forming maybe their view of God and scripture. They think it is playing it safe. Again, thanks for adding to the discussion.
AW,
Don't have a heart attack but I do agree with you on this one! :-)
Great thoughts and great response to The Prophet's question.
Darin,
It is so hard to understand why people believe certain things when in scripture it seems so clear. At the church I am at know there were preachers who actually preached and taught the congregation that the Holy Spirit didn't indwell and was the "Word of God" only. I have had to show them in scripture what it says concerning the Holy Spirit and know I can tell that they have a greater sense of joy and awe about God. It is so wonderful.
L.E.,
I always appreciate your comments you know. You are right I do agree with AW on this one! :-)
I believe that the Holy Spirit indwells us at the point of baptism. I am not a Calvinist. I don't believe in once saved always saved.
I do believe that we are saved by grace and that baptism is gift (Eph 2:8-9) and baptism is the act in which we recieve and open the gift. I do have a choice I am I going to keep the gift or give it back.
I believe that we still sin after recieving the Holy Spirit. We are not perfect. Paul explains this struggle in Romans 7:14-25! Paul is talking about life through the Spirit. I don't believ that we are always jumping in and out of our salvation status. I love John's wonderful words in John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW you have eternal life." You are right God does not stand to look at sin but when we are baptized into Christ we are under the blood of Jesus. When God looks at us he don't see our sin. He sees the blood of his one and only. He see's a child, an heir of the kingdom.
I believe that we can fall away. I just did a study on Wed. Nights on falling away. A wonderful book I recommend is "Falling Away: Why Christians Lose Their Faith and What Can Be Done About It" by Brian Simmons. Excllent book.
I believe that if I do choose at some point in my life to turn away from God the Holy Spirit will leave and as Hebrews 10:26-31 says, "no sacrifice for sin is left." If we deliberatly keep...on sinning. That is a choice. The great thing about God is he allows us to choose. He gives us that choice to obey and follow the spirit or not.
I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. God breathed. Spirit filled. Living. Active. Sharper than any double edged sword.
I don't think the Holy Spirit is the word of God. If so anyone could just run down to Wal-Mart and buy the Holy Spirit. You remember what happed to Simon when he tried to buy the Holy Spirit? No the Holy Spirit is a gift we recieve to dwell within us at the point of baptism.
I hope this helps you in what I think regaurding your comment.
Again L.E., I always appreciate your comments and love your thoughts in adding to the discussion. Thanks and God bless you brother.
l.e.m.---
1Thess 5:19 "Do not quench the Spirit."
Eph 4:30 "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
Yes one can "fall from grace" or find oneself in a state of not having access to the grace of God. But that is not lost. Lost is only a state for the Christian when the end comes (death or Jesus return).
Does the Holy Spirit fellowship with our spirit? Yes. But a Christian is either "walking in the light"- a state of grace or not "walking in the light" a state of no access to God's grace because of our deliberate sin.
Repent...start walking....back with God.
The fallacy comes in when we think that falling from grace means being "kicked" out of Christ. If that were the case then we would have to "start all over" by coming to Christ again and again.
The two verses above teach that the Spirit can be grieved and eventually quenched.
Does quenched mean the Spirit "leaves" I don't believe so except for that final "quenching" of dieing in deliberate sin.
We all sin and are at times sinners. That doesn't mean we are "ping-pong" lost-saved and it doesn't mean "ping-pong" indwelling either. Look at those congregations in Revelation...some sinful things but...still called the church...still have their candle sticks...BUT they can be removed.
Ephesians 4.30 teaches that we can "grieve" the Holy Spirit right up until repentance is no longer an option.
I know this will never change anyone's mind in the church but at least I've done my part.
AW
"P"man
the chest pains are strong with this one :)
AW
AW:
LOL
:-)
Preacherman you spoke of John 5:13 read on farther in John and you will find out that If you believe Christ is the word the word is the holy spirit.
Read John Chap 14 with emphisis on vs 16,17,18. people make the mistake that Christ was talking to the world, when he was only speaking to the apostles. What did Christ mean when he said "I will not abandon you as orphans,I will come to you", I will come to you.
read the part where he said the world at large cannot recieve him and why. I have no doubt at all the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Christ, and unless you can raise the dead and heal the sick as the apostles could, with a touch I doubt seriously you are indwelled with The Holy Spirit. We all believe what we must, Unless we can be convinced otherwise.If you make no mistakes and never sin you may be a temple in which God lives. I doubt that we can do either one. May God Bless
AW Does the Holy Spirit fellowship with our spirit? I surly believe It does. but that is a whole different thing than I understand what those who say they are indwelled by the Holy Spirit mean.
LEM
Preacherman after giving your statement much thought, Maybe I just don't know what people say when they say they are indwelled by Christ. If they are talking about their carnal body, I just don't buy that. I do believe the Pentecostal church had a lot to do with my researching this belief, I don't know much about their belief now but when I was a kid they would get the Holy Ghost and he would take over their entire actions, It was kinda scary to a kid. Now the statement "You in Christ,Christ in you" Could it mean when you are baptized Christ adds you to his body of believers his church? Could Christ in you mean when you are added to his body, your priority in life changes and Christ is the major part of your life? I am not sure what you are saying, are you saying you are not guided in this life by the word. you are guided by an indwelling being, if so you do not need the word.and we do not need the bible it becomes just another book. I am totaly guided by the word because a conscience and the word is all I have. I don't know why those who are indwelled need to go to church to be edified when you are edified internally. Please help me to understand your position do you believe you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit in the same way the apostles were after Christ breathed the Holy Spirit into them? If you are then you are truly blessed. LEM
I have never heard of that teaching either. I believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within us. He has been my teacher when I have read the Word, but I don't believe that He is the Word. He is my guide.
I love the scripture that John Turner quoted from Romans 8: 9 &10.
The very thought of that is just awesome! That is empowering!
Maybe they just want to simplify one of the hardest things to understand about God's character. They're certainly ignoring a lot of scripture about the Holy Spirit--not to mention that John 1 is talking about Jesus as the Word who was with God and was God in the beginning.
John Alan Turner posted one of the key texts related to this subject.
No Holy Spirit you don't belong to Christ. No Holy Spirit living in you no eternal life and no resurrection to life for you.
The Holy Spirit in me is God's guarentee that I am saved and will finally make the trip to enjoy the inheritance reserved in heaven for me. Should I believe that guarentee made by God or not?
When Jesus said "If you believe on me I will raise you up at the last day". (my paraphrase) Should I believe Him or not? When He prayed for me in John 17 asking that I would be with Him in His glory and be one with Him and the Father, should I expect that prayer was answered or not?
If a man is saved for 10 years, then turns his back on God and goes to hell, did he have eternal life or 10 year life? Jesus said I will never thirst, never hunger, never die, will not see death, and more. I am going to believe Him with all my heart, soul, mind and body, not those who disagree with Him.
Grace and Peace,
Royce Ogle
l.e.m.---
You said """ Please help me to understand your position do you believe you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit in the same way the apostles were after Christ breathed the Holy Spirit into them? If you are then you are truly blessed. LEM """ I believe you are refering to John 20.21-23
John 20:21-23 is one of the harder sections of Scripture to understand. Here are a few points for understanding these verses:
Vs. 21 is the Apostles’ commission & only the Apostles. (that is who He "breathed on")
Vs. 22 is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. [See: Acts 1:5, Acts 1:8 & Acts 2:15-21]. These verses show that the pouring out, indwelling, baptism in the Holy Spirit is/was yet a future event for the Apostles when Jesus spoke to them in John 20.
Vs. 22 is simply the passing of the Holy Spirit gift of inspiration (and probably miraculous gifts) given by Jesus to the Apostles.
Vs. 23 is not an ability to forgive sins (that is for God alone) given to the Apostles [See: Colossians 1:13-14 & Acts 13:38]. We can see that 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 demonstrates this very point. Notice in 2 Corinthians 2:10 how Paul shows his “ability to forgive” is found only by the will, teaching and understanding that come from Christ. Paul can only “forgive” that which Christ has already forgiven or that which Christ has shown him by inspiration is “forgivable”. Paul did not make this man (1 Corinthians 5:1-13) right in the sight of God by Paul forgiving him. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 that the man is right because he has repented and God has forgiven him. Paul says basically, 'if God has forgiven him that's good enough for me (because he is right in the sight of Christ) and it should be good enough for ya'll'.
Vs. 23 is "like" Matthew 16:19. This time Jesus speaks directly to the fact of inspiration in the Apostles’ teaching. Jesus tells them that they will by the power and will of God set forth the principles of God’s will for His church. Simply put what they direct the church to do or not to do by their inspired words would from this point on represent the will of God for sin.
That is also how 1 Corinthians 7:6, 7:10-11, & 7:12-13 all has the same authority for the church. Many People want Paul's words "(I, not the Lord)" to mean nothing to them. They like to call these verses 'Paul's opinion' and they like to ignore them as such; but, John 20:21-23 says they are as inspired and we are as bound by them as if they were "red letter". You see John 20.21-23 says the entire New Testament is red letter.
I believe that I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit, not in the exact same way as the apostles, but rather in the way that the 3,000 on Pentecost received the "gift which is the Holy Spirit."
However, I also think that in our over-personalized modern, "me, my Bible, and the Holy Spirit" style of exegesis, we've overpersonalized this to a dangerous exent. Therein lies the fallacy of the 'Holy Boarder'. The Holy Spirit indwells the church as a whole, which means that the Holy Spirit indwells me and you and every other Christian. When a Christian rejects Christ, they move out of the church, and they EVICT the Holy Spirit from their lives.
That's my limited understanding of the situation, anyway.
in HIS love,
Nick
Well said Nick, I couldn't have said it better myself, and I didn't.
Isn't the indwelling Holy Spirit one of the reasons Paul uses to teach that we should not be sexually immoral?
From 1 Corinthians 6: Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[b] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
How would this passage be true if we were embracing the 'word only' position?
It is my opinion that people embrace this false doctrine in order to defeat Pentecostals in debate. bah!
God the Spirit "indwells" the body of Christ but does not "indwell" individual members of the body?
A Christian "leaves" the body of Christ?
3,000 received the "gift" of the Holy Spirit but not the indwelling?
The "holy boarder" is really the "holy renter"?
OK?....
AW
Acts:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I believe we first should desern what the gift is, Is it the Holy Ghost, or a gift brought by the Holy Ghost. I believe if we examine the gift and what it is we might understand the Holy Ghost better. I belive the gift is the gift of righteousness the gift of salvation, the gift of God's word. I believe we should transpose the word (from for the word of) same meaning.
Wanderer,
Psalm 51:11
Isaiah 63:10
Isaiah 63:11
These are OT passages that specifically use the term "Holy Spirit" I believe in the indwelling, also. But the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God who existed from the beginning of time.
Genesis 1:2
Was it God the Father Who moved upon the waters? Jesus? Or was it the Holy Spirit of God?
What about Exodus 31:3 or Exodus 35:31, Numbers 11:17? Numbers 11:25, Numbers 11:26 or Numbers 11:26?
What about Numbers 24:2 or Judges 3:10, Judges 6:34? Judges 11:29, Judges 13:25 or Judges 14:6?
What about Judges 14:19 or Judges 15:14, 1 Samuel 10:6? 1 Samuel 10:10, 1 Samuel 11:6 or 1 Samuel 16:13?
What about 1 Samuel 16:14 or 1 Samuel 19:20, 1 Samuel 19:23? 2 Samuel 23:2, 1 Kings 18:12 or 2 Kings 2:16?
What about 1 Chronicles 12:18 or 1 Chronicles 28:12, 2 Chronicles 15:1? 2 Chronicles 20:14, 2 Chronicles 24:20 or 2 Chronicles 33:6?
What about Nehemiah 9:20 or Nehemiah 9:30, Job 33:4? Psalm 51:11, Psalm 104:30 or Psalm 106:33?
What about Psalm 139:7 or Psalm 143:10, Isaiah 11:2? Isaiah 30:1, Isaiah 32:15 or Isaiah 34:16?
What about Isaiah 42:1 or Isaiah 44:3, Isaiah 48:16? Isaiah 59:21, Isaiah 61:1 or Isaiah 63:10?
What about Isaiah 63:11 or Isaiah 63:14, Ezekiel 2:2? Ezekiel 3:12, Ezekiel 3:14 or Ezekiel 3:24?
What about Ezekiel 8:3 or Ezekiel 11:1, Ezekiel 11:5? Ezekiel 11:24, Ezekiel 36:27 or Ezekiel 37:1?
What about Ezekiel 37:14 or Ezekiel 39:29, Ezekiel 43:5? Joel 2:28, Joel 2:29 or Micah 2:7?
What about Micah 3:8 or Haggai 2:5, Zechariah 4:6? Zechariah 6:8 or Zechariah 7:12.
Preacher, I hate taking up so much space, and for that I apologize.
Prophet,
Yes, exactly the Holy Spirit is God. I have even gotten to the point personally where I use: God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit to try and stem confusion. The Holy Spirit is God BUT the indwelling was a promise that was made for those in Christ and not "available" during the time covered in the OT.
There is no "indwelling" of God the Spirit before Christ. Why? Because of righteousness that is only possible with Christ, by being in Christ. Jesus said this very thing in John 16.7 What Jesus says and means is the Spirit, the Counselor, can only come "indwell" after Jesus has accomplished His mission. D-B-R brings in the new covenant [Hebrews 8.7-13], establishes His kingdom and brings righteousness to those who "know God and obey the Gospel".
This isn't some matter anti-matter thing where the Son and the Spirit can't be in the same place at the same time [bad analogy]. It is a statement of righteousness and indwelling.
The Holy Spirit [God the Spirit] most definitely has always existed BUT His indwelling was only possible after "forgiveness of sins" was accomplished and we had access to being truly 'spiritual vessels'.
Again, Holy Spirit is God. God has always existed. Holy Spirit has always existed. But the "indwelling" only possible in/under/with new covenant.
Now, lets look at some hard ones.
What about 1 Samuel 16:14 or 1 Samuel 19:20, 1 Samuel 19:23? 2 Samuel 23:2, 1 Kings 18:12 or 2 Kings 2:16? These are all examples of God the Spirit empowering people to do the will of God. Notice that the Spirit is "upon" I know some translations differ but this is an empowering a most definite miraculous work and not 'indwelling'. Case in point you left out Numbers 22.26-30 Balaam's donkey spoke by the power of God...everything else in the OT would suggest by the power of God the Spirit...no indwelling in a soulless beast. And Micah 3.8 is a good example of this..."filled with POWER, with the Spirit of the Lord..." It was in the OT the POWER of the Spirit.
I think that is why some today fear the indwelling they think their donkeys might start talking :)
AW
sorry "P"man for the long comment :(
AW, Glad to see we're on the same page now, at least I think we are.
Your There was no "indwelling" before Christ established His church. The Holy Spirit is God. threw me for a loop at first.
I believe that there were specific occasions in the OT, when God needed His Holy Spirit to use people (i.e. the prophets), but permanent indwelling didn't come until after Christ ascended to Heaven.
One of the chief distinctions between the older covenant and the newer covenant is the Spirit. Ezekiel 36 and 37 merit close study and attention. The prophet makes it clear that God would place his Spirit IN his people. He does this for at least two reasons: to grant life (the point of the dry bones) and to ENABLE obedience (36.27). Many scholars think the imagery of these chapters lies behind Romans 7 and 8 as well.
There can be no doubt that God's Spirit was active in all phases of the life of the Israelite but it does seem that each person indwelled is a new covenant reality.
For those who depart from the Holy Spirit leave grace for human effort. Such a system is not Christianity.
Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Whoa whoa whoa....
Did you guys just skip the first line of my comment?
"I believe that I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit..."
What did the 3,000 on Pentecost receive? Occam's Razor slices away everything but the simplest, most straightforward explanation that accounts for all the facts presented. What does Occam's razor leave? The 3,000 on Pentecost received the gift, which is the Holy Spirit. If there be any doubt on that, Paul makes it bluntly clear in the passages already mentioned by JA (Romans 8:9,10) and Dobber (1 Cor 6).
However, I still hold that we overpersonalize this concept. The "members of the body" metaphor helps ward off this overindividualization. Think about it for a second: Which member of your body does your spirit dwell in? Does your whole spirit dwell in each particular cell? Or does the breath of life indwell your whole body? When a toe is cut off from the body, it dies because it is cut off from the body where the spirit dwells.
The same is true of the church and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit indwells every member of the body of Christ as long as they are attached to the body. If they disconnect themselves (because Romans 8 makes it clear that no part of the Body of Chist can be accidentally chopped off), they die just as an appendage dies.
I hope this more clearly explains my thoughts.
in HIS love,
Nick
prophet,
one last time(NOT because of you but because I have said enough on this subject)
The "indwelling" of God the Spirit was absolutely and totally impossible before God the Son accomplished His mission on earth. Any OTHER work or empowering or action by God the Spirit was simply God working miraculously through or with that individual or "donkey".
SO:
#1) God the Spirit is God not a force or a feeling or a 'working' of God... He is just 100% God.
#2) There was NO "indwelling" of God's people prior to the establishment of God's kingdom on earth through God the Son. NO temporary or portion or measure of the "indwelling"....at all.
#3) Yes, i believe with #'s 1 & 2 in mind...we are in complete agreement.
-------------
SIDE BAR: I have found that many brethren do not understand God: Father-Son-Spirit. Just say, "Jesus is God" in Bible class then duck, stand back and watch out!
AW
I want to thank everyone for there thoughts on this discussion. It was great to see the two different belief's when it comes to the Holy Spirit.
K3,
Thanks for your comments.
I love for you to add to any discussion on this blog.
God bless.
Been wrapped up in some stuff getting to this article a bit late in line but I thought you guys might check out this article from Jim McGuiggan touching a bit on the subject:
http://www.jimmcguiggan.com/reflections/lesson.asp?status=1+Corinthians&id=313
This has been a great discussion. Again, I believe that the Holy Spirit indwells us at the point of baptism as discribed in Acts 2:38. I pray that we will never quinch the Holy Spirit but we will cherish the gift that God has given us. That he did not leave us as orphans but has give his spirit within us. Without the Holy Spirit we are lost so I want to encourage those readers who haven't been baptized to do it. It is an essential step that every believer must make in order to have the Holy Spirit. See Act 2:38: Mark 16:16; Acts 8; Acts 9; Act 10...Romans 6:1-ff. I will have a post on baptism in the near future.
Thanks again for all the great comments.
I am preaching a series on the Holy Spirit right now.
I believe the view you mentioned grew out of modernistic ideas.
While the church was fighting against some forms of modernism in the early part of last century--evolution, attacks on inspiration of the Bible, disbelief of miracles in Bible--it seems that many, at least in churches of Christ came to reject much talk about angels, demons, and the Holy Spirit.
Ironically, some brethren assumed beliefs that were rooted in the same things that they were attacking. Wierd, huh? I assume someone else used this term but maybe not, I like to call them "Neo-Sadducees" because of Acts 23:8.
Of course, I don't have any evidence that this is the exact reason it happened, but it seems plausible.
Even though the discussion seems to have died down, and maybe someone already mentioned this, but
for those who say the Spirit only works with the Word, there are two things in Romans 8 that the Spirit does that cannot be explained in its connection with the Word of God.
Can you find them?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on lacunal.
Regards
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