preacherman

Sunday, August 13, 2006

Splits within the Church

I am currently reading Kingdom Come by John Mark Hicks and Bobby Valentine. I am enjoying it very much. The book has caused me to think about the church and what God wants from it. As mentioned in the book, talked about at ACU Lectureship, and known among the restorationists is the split of 1906. I disagree with David Lipscomb and Harding. I think any split is wrong. I do think that there are many great things that we can learn from both Limpscomb and Harding.
As I keep tell the congregation I preach for, this isn't my church, it isn't even your church, this is the Lord's Church. He purchased it with the highest price of His one and only. Do we forget that as Chrisitans? We let personalities, selfish agendas get in the way of what God wants from us.
Do we understand that people who cause division in the church are going to judged by God harder than anyone else because it is His church and as they words says, "The Lord hates division." You look at how God is, unity in the trinity. It is how he is made up. One. Jesus's prayer in the garden was for oneness.
We should try to make peace. Jesus said, Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called what?
I know I want to called a son of God don't you.
What I see happened in 1906 is the Christian church wanted worship done a certain way and because they were doing it different. Christian church dis-fellowshiped itself from the church of Christ.
You hear about churches doing that today. You don't do it the way I think is by the word so we are going to remove our fellowship from you.
As you read the letters by Paul, Peter, James, John, Jude, you never see an example of dis-fellowship between churches. You don't see the Corinthian church saying to the Ephesian church we are removing fellowship from you. And I think all the churches had serious problems. Sin.

I believe we should strive for peace and unity.
We are seeing that push today with churches of christ and the christian church.
What has to happen for that to occur?
Does the Christian church need ask for forgivness and to give up the use of instruments for that to happen? Since it was I am going to take my bag or marbels (instraments)) and do my own thing. What can be done to seek unity and peace? What can ministers and churches do to make a difference and answer Jesus' prayer that he prayed in the garden?
How does it look in the eyes of the world we splits happen? What message does it send?
Will we see more unity and peacemaking in the comming years? How and why?
Let me know what you think?

48 Comments:

Blogger Darin L. Hamm said...

Preacherman,

I enjoy your posts.

The Jewish believers met on Saturday and the Gentile believers met on Sundays. Maybe that is our problem. We attempt to draw down our lines of fellowship too far. Maybe we attempt to define fellowship in a way that in not grounded in reality.

Somewhere down the line fellowship was based on agreement on certain sacred cows. Somewhere fellowship became about worshiping in the same building. If groups within the early church didn’t even worship on the same day and yet had fellowship what does that mean to us today?

Maybe we ARE in fellowship and all we need to do is acknowledge it instead of trying to create it or make it happen. Maybe fellowship is because of agreement on Christ and we have a lot of leeway in how we express that. The Jews seemed to be able to continue to worship in very Jewish ways (Acts 21, Romans 14) and yet they still had fellowship.

When does Paul get upset with the Jews? When they try to make others follow their traditions. He rebukes them when they try to say their traditions are the only way to show you are a believer.

11:36 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Darin,

Great comments as always.
I do think we have tried to force our traditions on others just as the Jews did to the gentiles. The bible gives no authroity traditions as lines of fellowship. And as you mentioned Paul rebuked Peter and others for them trying to force the Gentiles to observe what they considered to be more holy or acts that did not matter in terms of righteousness for holiness. As God people he has called us to Holiness. It is easy for us to confuse holiness with self-righteousness. And when we our self-rightoues instead of Holy then division is just around the corner.

Darin thanks for your comments as always.
Comment and add to the discussion anytime.

10:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think any split is bad.
It sends a message to the world that Christians don't love and get along.
As Jesus said, "All men will know you are my disciples if you love one another."
May our love be shown to all men and God glorified.

David

10:37 AM  
Blogger Velcro said...

Preacher, Great Post.

I think Wade Tannehill brought up a great point with his post, "What is at the Center". First we must decide whether what we disagree about is at the center or not. I'm not for sure, but I don't think that instrumental worship is or should be at the center.

Therefore, can we just agree to disagree without being split?

The most interesting thing to me about the C of C is that Stone & Campbell started the church in order to bring all of the churches together into one large body.

How far have we strayed from that? Hopefully as far as we ever will. Things are changing. My church Altamesa CofC is pretty progressive, and the largest CofC Church (Richland Hills CofC) in our area is very progressive.

Again, good post.

5:41 PM  
Blogger Wade Tannehill said...

I think we begin to acknowledge the fellowship that exists by taking baby steps. In our town, I have made no efforts to officially merge with the Christian Chruch, or anything like that. But a conversation with a beleiver at that church has led to "get togethers" among the young familes from each congregation (C of C and CC).

The first party was at my house and we hope to make this a regular occurance. Eventually, who knows--maybe a joint Bible study and we go from there.

But we start by getting to know each other informally.

Great comments from Darin and Josh. It's nice to be quoted-most of the time.

11:55 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Wade,

Thanks for you comments.
I know that when I was youth minister the Christian church youth group would come over on Wed. nights for class. It was great the teens got to know and have some relationship built from it. As you know some of the parents were going to Christian church for a while and I think that had influence as well.
I enjoyed the relationship I had with their minister and as you know he even offered me a job as their youth minister, we of course moved to California instead of taking it.
I hope you can began that bible study with them.

Wade, great comments and thank you insights. You are indeed the best minister I have worked with and appreciate your friendship as you know.

God bless you.

8:09 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Josh,

Great thoughts as well.
Wades post does really make you think as what should matter for Christians and the church. It amazes me that alot of the things Christians fuss and fight over don't matter. Fellowship Halls, One cup or many cups, order of worship, style of worship, how long the preacher preaches, what ministries should we have, and on and on...
What matters?

Above all love one another. Love to me would be at the center. If we all the things we do and don't love it means nothing. If we don't love Christianity means nothing. Why? God is love. I love 1 Cor 13 and 1 John, don't you? I think it needs to be preached and taught more in the church.

Josh, thanks for you comments
And looking forward to the battle of the bands fright, right?

I heard more from the Fray, on XM.
They do have a good sound.

God bless.

8:17 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

One more question to get your wheels turning on this issue and that I find interesting.

We seem to applogize all the time to different groups. At ACU lectureships they appologized to the blacks, Christian church...Do we appolgize to much to everyone?

Over 100 years there has been silence from the Christian church. No appology. Are they willing to do that? The progressives are more willing to change and sacrifice things so no one is offended and for peace to occur. Is the Christian church willing to sacrifice instruments for the sake of peace?
I know if I am doing something that (if it really doesn't matter or not, preference, enjoying freedom in Christ) and someone is offended and hurt because of it. I am willing to scrifice the freedom I might have for peace. So do you think they can, should, or sacrifice the instruments for the sake of unity?

What do ya'll think?

8:23 PM  
Blogger Velcro said...

Preacher, excellent question.

I'll give a little bit of my background here concerning instrumental music. I hope this doesn't stir up too much dust.

I didn't go to a C of C or C C church. I grew up in an Evangelical Bible Church. Instrumental worship was a part of every service. Actually, music was my first love before I found Christ... (or before He found me). Now myself and both of my younger brothers are musicians, and we love to worship God with the gifts He's given us (Moreso my brothers than myself).

Naturally, I prefer instrumental worship. My wife, however, grew up C of C and prefers accapella worship during church service.

We have, since getting married, come to a compromise. On Saturday nights we go to a local church that provides instrumental worship; on Sunday morning, we go to Altamesa C of C, where the worship is accapella.

Neither of us feel like the other is less correct. It's just that we have different preferences.

I once had a discussion with her mom about our denominational differences before we were married.

I posed the question to her, "What's your favorite kind of food?" She answered, "Mexican".
I responded, "My favorite food is Italian. Does that make you wrong and me right? Of course not. It is preferential."

11:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I want to church at the Methodist church once and the orgin was so loud I couldn't heard myself sing. I could have been singing a Slayer song and no one would have known it.

Bill

12:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1:04 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Bill,
I hope you didn't sing slayer.

Josh,

Thanks for your comments.
I have one question to get you to ponder is if your wife didn't see it as a preference and it was something that might cause conflict and division in the marriage would you sacrifice for the sake of her love? That is what I am talking about with the Christian church. For the sake of love and peace should their be sacrifice?

1:08 PM  
Blogger Darin L. Hamm said...

Preacherman,

I think you are getting at something that is key. It is an individual decision. This is how one couple has approached their differences. Another couple may do something different. We had a couple at our church a couple of weeks ago that did just as you ask. The husband grew up with instrumental worship.

They are at a point in their faith journey where she no longer has an issue with instruments but up until then they went to a CoC.

I see that in the context of their marriage and even with extended families, but I would have a real problem if because of her position she expected every church in the world to stop using instruments for her. That doesn’t sound like sacrifice that sounds like selfishness.

Again, I do not see fellowship as something that must take place in the same building or is based on identical practices. It is Christ that brings us into fellowship.

3:11 PM  
Blogger Velcro said...

Preacher, Thanks for asking.

Actually, the first two years of our marriage I did sacrifice. Not because she was closed minded, but just because I wanted to honor her preferences. We only went to a C of C. I don't mind accapella worship, I just prefer instrumental worship.

Finally, I sat her down and talked about the idea of visiting a local church that has more my preference of music. She agreed to go with me on Saturday Nights. We have both been happier since.

One thing I should point out with conflicting beliefs. So many we tend to believe that it's Either/Or.

One person stands on one side of the line across from their counterpart on the other side of the line. Here's what happens: If the line is drawn between us we'll never solve anything, because we're divided. The person on the other side of the line becomes the problem. And let me just say this... the line wants to be between us. This is where it's most powerful.

However, if we can come to the agreement that the line that's dividing us is the problem and not eachother, then we both can be on the same side attacking the problem instead of eachother. And... there are more than two options in most cases.

I did a post on this same subject in May about the difference between Judgment Theology & Cooperation Theology. You can find it Here.

To answer your question: God defined his love in the sacrifice of His Son for us. By that definition, love is the willingess to sacrifice.

However, let us look at the bigger picture. Do just the C of C and CC need to come together in unity? Was Stone & Campbell's vision just one denomination? Not if I understand them correctly. It was the entire church body of believers.

This may be one step in all of God's churches coming together in Unity. But if that is the case, most all churches worship instrumentally. It will be very difficult to ask them not to.

6:13 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Darin and Josh,

Thanks you for your comments.
Excellent thoughts.
Josh great post on Judgement Theology and Coorperation Theology. Everyone should read it. Josh really makes you think in that post.

I find Pauls words hitting the mark as far as what we should strive for and pursue as far as peace in Philippians 2:1-ff "If you have any encouragement from being united in Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests but also the interests of others."

Love is the key. Colossians 3:12-14 especially vs. 14 "And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. 1 Corinthians 13 talks about if we do all these good deeds and even die for Christ and have not love it means nothing.
Entire letter of 1st John.

Love. I love my fellow brothers and sisters so much because of Christ love for me that I am willing to do whatever it takes to be the Christian that God wants me to be. God's love motiviates me to give up some freedom I enjoy for the sake of peace. Love. Love for my brothers is more important that what I want or what I think or what I feel. Love.

It is no longer I but Christ. It is no longer I but the Church. It is no longer I but the Christian way of life. Abundant life of love towards others. It is no longer I but God's will.

Thank you Darin and Josh.
And please read Josh's post. It is well worth it.

10:52 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Is love the key towards unity and reconciliation and peace?

What do you think is the key?

10:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Preacherman,

I think the key is love and that love would include sacrifice. Jesus gave up heaven what are we willing to give up?
And if we aren't willing to sacrifice what does that say about our love and commitment to Jesus and His church?
And if most people think instruments aren't essential to salvation then why not give it up for the sake of peace and unity?

David

11:23 PM  
Blogger Darin L. Hamm said...

Preacherman,

Thanks for being the Energizer Bunny of encouragers.

God bless.

5:04 PM  
Blogger Velcro said...

I think unconditional love is the key.

Preacher, I sense you have the heart of Paul. You quote him often.

12:56 PM  
Blogger Falantedios said...

I think the kind of love Jesus taught his friends and followers is the key. Sacrificial love.

The Master tells us, "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command."

I think the sacrificial principle comes into play in several ways with the topic of unity.

Radical ideas of sacrifice:
1) "White" churches sell their buildings, sacrificing their autonomy for peace and unity by unifying with the "black" churches in their localities.

2) Congregations sell their buildings, sacrificing their convenience and worldly prestige for increased opportunities to support evangelists and care for the helpless.

3 (or maybe 2.a) Congregations sell their musical instruments, sound systems, stage lighting equipment, etc., sacrificing their unnecessary luxuries for the opportunity to live as incarnations of the one who had no place to lay his head.

4) Stone-Campbell congregations sacrifice their every-day distinctiveness by visiting, en masse, other expressions of Christianity in their localities. At least then we'd look like we care about other assemblies.

just some ideas,
Nick

2:44 PM  
Blogger Darin L. Hamm said...

Preacherman,

I hear what you are saying. When the mainline CoC is willing to sacrifice their multiple cups, preachers, bible classes, etc. to unite with the other a capella CoC’s, then I suppose the call for sacrifice they make towards others will ring more true.

3:05 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Josh,
I think I do have a heart of Paul.
His writtings are my favorite.
The grace, the love, the heart and passion that he had, if only...if only.

Nick,
That is definately how the church was in Acts and in the Bible.
House churches. Giving and having everything in common. Meeting needs. Looking to the interests of others. Having the heart of Christ. Daily.
Again let me quote Paul, "I become all things to all men that I may win some." Are we really doing that as His church and Christians? Self-sacrifice for the sake of God's will should be a must for us as Christians.
Nick thanks for visiting my blog.
Love for you to visit and comment any time.
God bless you.

Darin,
You make a good point.
Are we willing to practice what we preach? Are we willing to go the extra mile? Are we ourselves willing to do what we might call others to do? Great point.
God bless you.
As a fellow minister I know how important encouragement is in ministry. I know how tough ministry can be and so I am going to encourage as many ministers as I can to stay strong in the Lord.
God bless you and thanks for your comments.

3:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why is it hard for people to say "I'm sorry"? We don't want to look like are wrong. I know when I fight with ones I love in order for peace to occur I have to say those two words, "I'm sorry" or "Forgive me." I believe if peace is to occur from a fight both sides need to say, "I'm sorry", "Forgive me." One side can be sorry all they want but if the other side isn't going to then peace will never occur. Can we set pride aside and say those two words?

3:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Will the Christian church and COC say those two words? Can they? Why won't they?

3:58 PM  
Blogger Velcro said...

Yeah, Preacher. The battle of the bands has it's own website now. I've tried to bring The Fray some competition by introducing Roses Are Red but The Fray has been tough.

Click HERE to vote for either The Fray or Roses Are Red! I'll check the results next Friday and declare the winner.

5:33 PM  
Blogger Falantedios said...

Preacher,
Thank you for your kind welcome. PLEASE PLEASE feel free to swing by Fumbling Towards Eternity and visit and comment.

I know this song doesn't exactly fit (the author's intent being romantic rather than spiritual), but there's some real truth about those difficult words we're talking about. Intimacy between Christian traditions has GOT to start somewhere.

BABY CAN I HOLD YOU?

Sorry
Is all that you can't say
Years go by and still
Words don't come easily
Like Sorry
Like Sorry

Forgive me
Is all that you can't say
Years go by and still
Words don't come easily
Like forgive me
Forgive me

But you can say Baby...
Baby can I hold you tonight?
Maybe if I'd told you
The right words
At the right time
You'd be mine

I love you
Is all that you can't say
Years go by and still
Words don't come easily
Like I love you
I love you

But you can say Baby...
Baby can I hold you tonight?
Maybe if I told you the right words
At the right time, you'd be mine.
-words and music by Tracy Chapman

2:27 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Words don't come easy.
Works like: Please for give me...I was wrong...I love you...
If we are to be the church he wants us to be we those words are a must.
I do think those words help to resolve conficts.
And split hurts the church.
Splits happen because of pride.
Splits send the wrong message to the world.
It tells them that we can't get along.
It tells them that Christians don't love.
It tells them, why bother?
So are we willing to set aside pride for the sake of Christ?
Are we willing to be the church God has called us to be?

My prayer is that we will be all that God has called us to be. That when the world looks at us they see Christ, they see genuine Chrisitans who love. When non Christians look at us they want what we have.

7:39 AM  
Anonymous Jeff said...

Preacherman,

I think that the Christian church has to give up the instruments and appologize if peace is to occur.

1:14 PM  
Blogger amylavay said...

I was wondering if you know of any statistics on church splits regarding worship and its controversies? I have a friend that needs statistics, and I can't seem to find any.

10:39 PM  
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