Thursday, May 14, 2009

Is Suicide The Unforgivable Sin???

As I have been in ministry and done many funerals the question that comes up concerning a suicide is, "Is my loved one saved and are they in heaven?" Well, dealing with depression myself have had these questions sloshing around in my head. As mentioned in previous posts , I have been in severe pain for some time. I have thought to myself wouldn't it be good if I could just die and be in heaven where there is no sorrow or PAIN. The thing has that kept me from going through with the act is my family and the question of where does one go if the attempt is successful. Yes, I have been on anti-depressants. I have been on many and have finally found the anti-depressants that are working. I think it is totally okay and normal for Christians to be on these drugs. I think there are many preachers and Christians that think you have to be joyous and happy all the time and make real people feel guilty about the way they feel and meds that they are on. So, if you are on anti-depressants, know that you can be a believer and be on these drugs.

I know this subject is very sensitive, yet I want your true answers to the questions you choose to respond to as well. The questions:

Is suicide self-murder? If confession cannot be made after the act, then where does the soul go? Is there such a thing as pre-confession? Is the unforgivable sin suicide? Is there any sin that Jesus won't forgive? Is God's Grace big enough and cover even suicide? What does the Bible say about the "Unforgivable sin?" Does the Bible say it is unforgivable? What feelings does the act of suicide bring on loved ones? What are some signs of someone who might commit suicide? Does the act of suicide give loved ones hell on earth as they have feelings of guilt, blame, loss, sadness, depression, and even questions such as these and on and on? Have you ever had these thoughts? How have anti-depressants helped your life? Does it make you mad when preacher make believers feel guilty who are on these drug and can it drive a person to the act of suicide?

What do you think?
Share Your Thoughts.


Blogger jel said...

I always thought it was, but really don't know.

i was on them for a while but didn't like the way they made me feel, Suicide aint the answer !

sorry you are is so much pain preacherman, hang in there!

5:57 PM  
Blogger Dusty Chris said...

It is not uncommon for people to have suicidal thoughts when life is rough, when things seem so out of control that they would rather be dead than face their situation. Carl Yung said that suicide say, "I would rather die than change." When someone is thinking of death as a solution, they can't see a way out, a way to live life fully.

Is it a sin? For me, yes. I have had many times I wish Jesus would come and take me home sooner rather than later. In fact, if He dicided to take me today, I would really be cool with that. Not that I am going to hasten it by my own hand, but if God chose it, I'm there.

I have taken antidepressants two times in my life and they really helped. ALthough the feeling on them was, at times, weird, it was better than the feelings and thoughts I had before I took them.

I think I would comfort families of suicide with love and tenderness. When they ask questions you don't know the answers to, it is OK to say, "I don't know but I know this hurts a lot for you and the family." Pray prayers for comfort and healing.

Talk. Talking really helped me. Talk to your friends and confidants about yourself. Find someone (counselor, psychologist, etc.) to process your thoughts and feelings. Someone who is confidential and caring. Usually on the other side of such pain is growth and wisdom, but we have to go through the process to get there.

6:54 PM  
Blogger -bill said...

Well, preacherman, you've picked a delicate topic this time. I am reluctant to comment, because this is such a sensitive matter and becasue, as one source reports, "suicide remains one of the leading causes of death in the United States, especially for young people ages 15-24. Although multiple factors contribute to suicide, at least 90 percent of all people who kill themselves have a mental disorder, a substance abuse disorder, or a combination of disorders." ( Prevention/YouthSuicidePrevention.htm)

Thus, I believe we must approach this topic with the utmost of caution. Many troubled souls might happen by and read what is written here.

With respect to your question re: the unpardonable sin, I do not belive that it is what Jesus had in mind when He said, "whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven." (Mark 3:29) He was discussing a completely different matter.

With respect to whether or not suicide is a pardonable sin, I honestly don't think we are in a place to give a difinitive answer to this question. There are simply too many possible variables. Therefore, God alone has the wisdom and insight to make such a judgment.

What I do know for certain is that God has placed a high value on human life. Therefore, He has placed a prohibition on humans murdering humans.

The following, especially the final portion, might be of some help to you in this regard:

Is the sixth commandment a prohibition against the taking of all forms of life in any manner whatsoever? Or is it limited to the taking of human life, as the NIV translation suggests? And if it is limited to the taking of human life, is that a prohibition under all circumstances, by all methods, for all causes and in all times?
The Hebrew language possesses seven words related to killing, and the word used in this sixth commandment appears only forty-seven times in the Old Testament. This Hebrew verb, rāṣaḥ, refers only to the killing of a person, never to killing animals, and not even to killing persons in a war. It carries no implications of the means of killing.
If any one of the seven words for killing in the Old Testament signifies what we refer to as “murder,” this is the verb. It implies premeditation and intentionality. Without exception, especially in the later Old Testament periods, it refers to intentional, violent murder (Ps 94:6; Prov 22:13; Is 1:21; Jer 7:9; Hos 4:2; 6:9). In each instance, the act was conceived in the mind first and the victim was chosen deliberately.
Thus the Old Testament would never use this verb to denote the killing of beasts for food (Gen 9:6) or the nation’s involvement in a war commanded by God. It would, however, use this verb in reference to self-murder (suicide) and in reference to the actions of accessories to a murder (2 Sam 12:9).
Note that Numbers 35:31 specifically distinguishes the capital offense of murder from the almost twenty other offenses punishable by death. Jewish and modern interpreters have long held that since this verse prohibited taking a “ransom for the life of a murderer”—a substitute of some kind—in all the other cases a substitution could be made for the death penalty. But so serious was murder that the death penalty was to be enforced.
In cases of nighttime invasion of a household by burglars, the prohibition in this verse did not apply, and rāṣaḥ is not the verb used (Ex 22:2). Nor does this commandment apply to accidental killings—that is, cases of manslaughter (Deut 19:5)—or to the execution of murderers by the recognized arm of the state (Gen 9:6).
Life was so sacred to God that all violent forms of taking human life caused guilt to fall upon the land. This was true of both manslaughter and premeditated murder. Both forms of killing demanded some type of atonement.
The reason life was so valuable was that men and women are made in the image of God. That is why the life of the murderer was owed to God, not to the bereaved relatives of the victim or to society. Capital punishment for first-degree murder was, and continues to be, mandated because God honors his image in all humanity. To fail to carry out this mandate is ultimately to attack the value, worth and dignity of all. It undermines other struggles as well, including those for racial equality, women’s rights, civil rights and human embryo rights—all are equally based on the fact that persons are made in the “image of God.”
Life was and remains sacred to the Giver of life. Under no circumstances was one to take one’s own life or lie in wait to take someone else’s life. So valuable was life, however fallen, that the only way to cleanse the evil caused by killing was atonement before God. Each murder placed blood-guilt on the land until it was solved and atoned for.

-Kaiser, W. C. (1997, c1996). Hard sayings of the Bible (148). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity.

Sorry for the long comment. But you did ask a whopper of a question.

Love in Christ,

6:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

did you read my post today.
i was just asked this question by my brand new phychiatrist today.

have you had thoughts of death...well, yes, of course doesn't everyone that is depressed or in pain? i thought many times, while in the deep dark pit, that it would be really good to rest in the peace of Jesus in Heaven. even now when i am going through anxiety and depression in a lesser degree than it can get. then the question, do you have thoughts of actually killing yourself, well, not actually doing it. what stops you, well, my family, it would not be fair to them. i would probably not try to survive a bad cancer, but i would get out of the way of a mac truck at this point. i think with depression, one can think of suicide because of the depression and/or because of certain drugs as well.

it is one thing to think about it and another to think about actually doing it.

i do not know where it says it is a sin. that would be interesting to hear more on that.

i know that i learn through suffering, mainly my need for Jesus, also humility and patience. yet, i still want to be well. but, does not everyone want to be well?

i am babbling lately...scattered toughts. time to get off the computer

7:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kinney, my thoughts (and I have some experience of family members with severe depression and multiple suicide attempts)...

Suicide is a result of extreme desperation when rational thought has long gone. It is not murder. Not all killing is murder. Is killing in warfare murder?

Why do we have to prayed for forgiveness for a sin to be forgiven? Jesus' death covered all our sins. Where in the Bible does it say we have to pray for confession for every sin we commit? Jesus paid the price!
Is there any sin Jesus won't forgive? Yes, blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

The act of suicide induces tremendous guilt on the family. That does keep many desperate people from killing themselves, and there is mercy in that, at least. But others get so desperate or hurting or in a place where they cannot see a way out.

Signs of wanting to commit suicide? Severe depression and/or talking of suicide or of wanting to end it all. However some people can hide their suicidal thoughts very well and caring family members might have NO idea!

Anti depressants are a God send for many people. However, be aware that there is an increased risk of suicide with some kind ADs, and especially when starting ADs, and especially for teens. Anyone starting ADs needs to be very closely monitored.

ADs have helped me. They got me through a dark patch. I am no longer on ADs but would go back on if needed. Loved ones in my family are on ADs long term. There is no shame in that.

Preachers who make believers feel guilty for being on ADs should be shot. At dawn. That's inexcusable for educated people in a pastoral role in this day and age.

Kinney, thank you for your boldness in sharing your depression. The more preachers who do, the better.

11:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think suicide is unforgivable, but I do think its a sin and that its obvious whoever commits it didn't have their heart in the right place at the time.

Does it mean their soul is doomed to hell? No one really knows outside of God, but I wouldn't dare chance it.

12:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Westcoastwitness, what experience do you have with suicide? Suicide results from desperation and mental illness. It's a MIND problem, not a heart problem.

4:10 AM  
Blogger nannykim said...

I think I would agree with most of what has already been said. As far as westcoastwitness and wjcsidey disagreement---I don't think you can say it is just a mind problem because our hearts and minds are so closely linked.

For a person, like my MIL, who has alzheimer's ..the anti psychotic meds have really helped stabilize her. The antidepressants didn't work...but if they had we certainly would have used them. Someone with her disease can not think correctly ...cannot reason....and they have a difficult time in prayer of course.

People with depression often have an imbalance in the chemicals/hormones, etc in the body. Therefore many antidepressants help with this issue. I also get angry with preaching that goes against the use of these drugs.

I agree with what has been said about the condition of the depressed person--not being able to reason or think correctly. I do believe in the importance of controlling our thoughts before we get to this bottom stage. I think this is one way the enemy scores big time. We have to constantly train our minds to look at things through God's eyes and not our own. Other Christians help us , and we ourselves can do this. An example is to take I Cor 10:13 to examine if we are lying or deceiving ourselves. So if we feel that our problems are unique, bigger, and tougher than other peoples, for example--we look at the statement--"You are dealing with common temptations"...if you believe God has forgotton me---you look at this verse and see that God says he is faithful. If you believe your problems are more than you can bear--you look at the statement that "I will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear---and if you feel trapped and that there is no way out then you look at the statement "I will provide a way out so that you can stand up under it"----

So there is an extreem importance in the area of dealing with the deceptions of our minds and our hearts. Others can really help us in this area. Drugs can help stablize us so that we can begin to try to think correctly. And some people have to be on them long term because of inbalance biologically.

I think we constantly have to drive our minds to look at our world view--not letting it get distorted by false ideas. I think we have to realize our world view as a believer is always under attack we have to bring ourselves back to this.

9:05 AM  
Blogger Royce Ogle said...

"If" our eternal destiny depends on us confessing every transgression we committ or those good things we omit none of us has any hope. Christ paid the price due in full. His death and resurrection satisfied God and we are in good standing with God based on Christ's work and not our ability to keep perfect track of our sins.

God is bigger and more gracious than most of us know.

I sincerely hope you the best preacherman.


9:54 AM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

IMO repeatedly rejecting the conviction of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin because it keeps a person from being born again.

I know of Christians who have, for one reason or another, taken their life.. their act was a sin but not one that is not forgiven.

10:45 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I have had some friends, and friends spouses commit suicide and the pain that they and their families were in was horrible to watch. All I could do is just offer love and hugs. I agree rational thinking at that time is gone. I agree that grace covers the sins we don't or can't confess. I know I sin and don't know about it and know though that God's grace is bigger than I can fathom.

What do you think about preachers who preach against anti-depressants? Or how should preachers handle this topic when preaching?
Does Christianity have a negative view and extra guilt to those stuggling with extreme depression?

2:18 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I recommend that people read nAncy's blog on this topic.

I am sorry to hear that you are battling cancer. You are in my families prayers.

2:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oh kinney, you must know.

i do not have cancer, that i know of.

i was just trying to say that there are some things that i think i would not fight and some things i think i would at this point.

i am sorry, i did not make that very clear in my comment.

3:20 PM  
Blogger Ted M. Gossard said...

I'm reminded of what Job's wife told him when he was smitten with terrible physical suffering, their children gone. That he should curse God and die.

How Job works through that is fascinating, and in spite of his friends, whose intial seven days of respectful silence and grief give way to expressing their understanding of that time.

I do believe we have to attack our weaknesses with fellowship with other Christians, prayers, regular time in Scripture. I also believe without a doubt that medications are sometimes needed. And some psychology, rooted in common grace, can help. We should not abandon any of these.

Jeremiah was prone to thinking this direction, but this is one of the richest books in all of Scripture. What he went through was most challenging, both inside and out- for him. And even Paul experienced something of the same.

My prayers are with you. Am glad the meds seem to be helping you get a better chemical balance. That can make a huge difference. But may God help you through those low times. I need that help too. I don't seem to need it enough for meds, but I go through low times as well, usually a bit every day. So in a limited way, I can empathize.


3:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

good thoughts on here. Luke 12 came up on Bible class the sunday i was gone. but I had studied it.

bill is right in pointing out that the unforgivable sin (besides any willful, unrepented sin) is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, if you look at all the times Jesus talks about it, it seems to deal with a Hard Heart.

Royce also said something good. I remember having conversations when young about what if "I cuss right before dying in a car wreck" How foolish we can get. if we have to specifically repent of each individual sin, we become legalists. It's about confession and praying and not about God's Mercy.

I also appreciate Wendy's comments. I think some people might be in their "right mind" so to speak, and kill themselves in a someone rational state, but so many are in despair, confused, dark and gloomy and would not be held totally accountable even in a court of law for anything done in that state.

I don't think it is categorically unforgivable, as Bill also say, God will judge, He knows.

4:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi wjcsydney -

I've counseled several who were contemplating "ending it" before, and was pretty close myself at one point in my life.

In every situation that has touched me personally, mental illness wasn't present - a heart problem was - namely, selfishness, and self-centeredness.

Your experience may be different, but that's mine.

5:22 PM  
Blogger Alan said...

If sin is "missing the mark" then I think suicide is clearly sin. That's a much different question from whether it is unforgivable. Some people apparently believe that in order to be forgiven of sin, you must remember every individual sin you commit, repent of each instance individually, confess each incident individually. I know people who live in fear that they will commit a sin and die in the act, and thereby throw away all the effort to persevere in the faith up to that point. I think that is a tragic misunderstanding of grace.

As we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from sin. (So, obviously, walking in the light does not mean living sinlessly -- otherwise there would be nothing for God to forgive!) If a faithful Christian dies in the act of committing a sin, I don't think it necessarily follows that the sin will not be forgiven... whether that sin is speeding in their car or committing suicide, or anything else. The "last sin you commit" is not the unforgivable sin.

7:33 PM  
Blogger Bible Prophecy on the Web said...

I believe that the only unforgivable sin is to deny the Godhead.

God the Father conceived within Mary (blessed among women) His very Word through His very Holy Spirit (Matt.1:20).

In Jesus dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col.2:9).

o God the Father
o The Holy Spirit of God the Father and
o The Word of God the Father

Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web

7:26 PM  
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

Kinney, I have migraine headaches from time to time (though I don't believe I have ever had them to the degree of severity you have), and have seen the warning auras; craved the cool, quiet darkness; tried to calm the dry heaves over an open toilet - and on occasion have prayed to God my gratitude that there wasn't a gun in the house.

I don't know if suicide is an unforgiveable sin. When successful, it is certainly and un-DOable sin ... and that means that you've decided that God can't use you anymore to bless His world, even in your pain; to encourage others, to share sympathy with them, to lift them up in prayer because you understand what they are suffering, at least in some measure.

It is, ultimately, a self-centered way to view the value of your life; just in a very negative way. The two suicides in scripture that I can think of - King Saul and Judas - were tortured souls who seemed to despair of any further hope in God. Is that a sin? In some sense, I think, yes.

I believe THE unforgiveable sin is to have one's conscience so seared that one believes that good is evil and evil is good. (That's what Jesus' critics were saying about what He had just done when He spoke of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31.) It's living the kind of life that violates even the sense of right and wrong that God puts in us from the beginning (Romans 1:18-23), and that's not something one can do suddenly or by accident. It's an attitude that one cultivates over a long period of time and indulgence to self and temptation. It's something that a reprobate comes to believe and do and live by, even though he/she should know better.

Suicide is often sudden; an irrevocable decision made in too much haste and triggered by unexpected/extreme circumstances. So - while the person who takes his/her own life should know better - sometimes, circumstances like excruciating pain take away the "know better."

Like others who've commented above, I believe God knows those circumstances.

At the same time, if one can think about the consequences beyond himself/herself (the loved one[s] who must discover the body, arrange the funeral, grieve for months and years, deal with frayed legal and business ends, worry about the decedent's relationship with God, et al. infinitum), it becomes easier to not make that decision and hurt so many others.

7:44 PM  
Blogger Dusty Chris said...

What do you think about preachers who preach against anti-depressants?
I think these preachers preach a gospel of control and personal power rather than the gospel of Jesus. Jesus was all about setting the captive free, not keeping them in bongage. Do they preach against taking blood pressure medicine or insulin? IS depression a made up disease? If one sees depression is a chemical imbalance or as a disease, then it seems to me a person should treat it.

Or how should preachers handle this topic when preaching?
Preachers should handle it with sensitivity and respect. Very few people want to be depressed...I know I didn't. I do know when people treat depression like the sufferer is lazy or stupid, it is not helpful and adds even more of a burden on the person's shoulders.

Does Christianity have a negative view and extra guilt to those stuggling with extreme depression?
I believe less so as more information is available. Only those who want power and control pile on extra guilt, which further incapacitates.

9:05 AM  
Blogger preacherman said...

I want to thank everyone for your thoughts on this tough subject. Again the grace of God is bigger than we can fathom. I hope and pray for those who are struggling with deep depression. I pray that pasotrs, preachers, councelors will have the compassion when dealing with this topic.

11:17 AM  
Blogger Prodigal Daughter said...

I have had a close family member commit suicide and have also attempted once myself. If suicide itself is unforgiveable, then where does that leave the people who have considered it or tried? I do not believe this is unforgiveable, because Jesus' death covers our sins. Jesus says that no one sin is greater than another (with the exception of blasphemy) so then I don't believe we can classify suicide as unforgiveable. It is an act that many people cannot comprehend, but those that have faced it understand that it is a very dark place to be in. But as it is written, the light shall come into the darkness. And although the midset of suicide and depression, seems at time unbearable and painful, "The Lord will light my candle so,that is shall shine full bright; The Lord my God will also make my darkness to be light.’" Psalm 18:28
Hang in there... :)

12:53 PM  
Blogger Kansas Bob said...

Great point Prodigal Daughter.. if the attempt to commit suicide is unforgivable then those who try it and fail are doomed to live the rest of their life in a way that they cannot be forgiven.

1:24 PM  
Blogger preacherman said...

Great points all...
Powerful discussion.

11:10 AM  
Blogger Franklin Wood said...

Here's an odd thought...
Do you think those who committed suicide were the "spirits in prison" that Jesus preached to?
Suicide is never mentioned (at least that I've read) in the Bible, even among a regular list of sins.
The verse people usually try to use to condemn it is "take care of God's temple."
My answer to that is, "Well, then I'm a terrible sinner becuz I'm WAY overweight. I must be neglecting God's temple."
Someone would say, "Yeah, but they have destroyed God's temple."
Yes, and I am probably slowly destroying God's temple too, by being overweight!
If people feel like they cannot control their life...
If people are so sad in this life that they take their life...
Don't you think God would have compassion on such people, and take care of them in the next life?

11:35 PM  
Blogger magdalunandi said...

I wrote something on this subject earlier, partially in response to this question and partially because it's been in my mind for a while:

2:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello. And Bye.

10:54 PM  
Anonymous Courtney said...

Nowhere in the bible does it say that suicide is the unforgivable sin. In Mark 3:28-29, it says, "I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." That's the only mention of an "unforgivable sin" in the bible.

11:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know that is it unforgivable or not but before doing think about the people who are attached with you.Even I am also very depressed these days and many times the thought came to my mind but stil beleiving on god that he is seeing everythingf and god will helpme out and will keep me out of this situation. Good and bad time both are the part of our life.We enjoyed fully the good time then have the power to face the bad time also.Good time wil also come to the life after this. just try...

That's what I am thinking now and hoping that I am right. Request to everyone please god ji se bolo na ki wo help karein....

1:39 PM  
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